SARAH HENNING: Mixing Magic and Mystery in "The Lies We Conjure"

Sarah Henning and I may have beef when it comes to college sports, but we can definitely agree on books are the absolute best. Sarah is a former journalist turned YA novelist. Her newest book, The Lies We Conjure, gives Clue or Knives Out meets witches vibes, and is a great read for someone looking for cozy, fall vibes.


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The Lies We Conjure
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It's All in How You Fall
The Princess Will Save You

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The Lies We Conjure
Seawitch
It's All in How You Fall
The Princess Will Save You

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It's All in How You Fall
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Transcript

00;00;05;25 - 00;00;26;25
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to the Literary Hype podcast. I'm Stephanie here. Literary hypomanic and today's author conversation is a fun one because it includes a lot of good natured ribbing. Sarah Heading is the author of The Lies We Conjure. So Sarah Henning and I talked about this book at San Diego Comic-Con, but we're from the same area and we went to rival schools.

00;00;27;27 - 00;00;43;29
Speaker 1
So therefore we had to harass each other frequently about our college choices. Because she went to CU, I went to K State, we're mortal enemies, but when it comes to books, we can all be friends. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Sarah Henning.

00;00;48;26 - 00;00;55;01
Speaker 1
Welcome to Literary Hype. Thank you. I would say it's exciting to have you on, but you are a Jayhawk and I'm a wildcat, so I'm.

00;00;55;02 - 00;00;55;15
Speaker 2
Excited.

00;00;55;18 - 00;00;59;01
Speaker 1
I didn't realize we can we can get along for the sake of books. We can agree on that.

00;00;59;06 - 00;00;59;26
Speaker 2
100%.

00;01;02;01 - 00;01;10;11
Speaker 1
So your book has a subtle reference to Q Why would you do this to me and call it out so that now I'm like, questionable if how I feel about.

00;01;10;11 - 00;01;18;26
Speaker 2
Things. I mean, I think it's just that people remember that Jayhawks exist, right? There's so many. Well, it's easy to see your jacket. There's no other school. It's true. You know, there's.

00;01;19;01 - 00;01;20;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, we're good.

00;01;20;23 - 00;01;28;23
Speaker 2
Nine year old really likes the Wildcats, though, because she loves cats and we live in Lawrence. So this is going to be a problem later when she's college age, I'm sure.

00;01;29;14 - 00;01;40;22
Speaker 1
I grew up in the Topeka area. So it was if you were a smart person, you were at K-State fan for football and a Q fan for basketball. And then you grew up and you have to pick and it's like, oh, oh, now what do I do?

00;01;40;22 - 00;01;49;26
Speaker 2
I know. But I do look for K-State, like when they make it into the NCAA tournament further than us because we've had some off years. I do root for them and all big 12 schools.

00;01;50;19 - 00;01;55;05
Speaker 1
Supporting the Big 12 because I was an athlete and you got merch when you were doing.

00;01;55;16 - 00;01;58;07
Speaker 2
It and I had a roommate, those on the K rowing team.

00;01;58;14 - 00;02;00;05
Speaker 1
So I probably lost to her.

00;02;01;05 - 00;02;02;24
Speaker 2
Well, maybe I think you're younger than me.

00;02;03;16 - 00;02;04;08
Speaker 1
Maybe a smidge.

00;02;04;21 - 00;02;05;21
Speaker 2
Who knows? Oh.

00;02;06;25 - 00;02;08;13
Speaker 1
I'm younger than I or older than I.

00;02;08;13 - 00;02;10;13
Speaker 2
Look, they're really impressive, like throwing teams.

00;02;10;17 - 00;02;24;23
Speaker 1
It's, it's a lot. It's definitely a lot. So you're here at San Diego Comic-Con promoting your upcoming book, The Lies We Conquer, which by the time I get to editing, it'll probably be coming out this week. So for those who haven't seen it on social media yet, what is your book about?

00;02;24;23 - 00;02;45;27
Speaker 2
So the way to conjure it comes out September 17th. So whenever this airs to see, you know, and it is knives out with magic. So it's a closed room murder mystery with witches and two girls who are not much as you get stuck in the fray and are totally like magic exist. Oh, no. And if they don't basically solve the murder and find these four relics, then they're going to be stuck there forever with these sexy witches.

00;02;46;03 - 00;02;47;08
Speaker 1
Don't know.

00;02;47;09 - 00;02;48;07
Speaker 2
That yet.

00;02;48;26 - 00;03;00;17
Speaker 1
So with a closed door mystery, you have to know a lot about these characters before you go in. So what is your process like for figuring out what pieces of the backstory are relevant to the story?

00;03;00;18 - 00;03;21;07
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. So this is told in multiple visits to parties. It's the TV of a non, which really who is like, oh my gosh, like what did I get myself into? And then he's a witch. And that really helped because I didn't kind of can give the background without it feeling like an info dump and you get to know all the different witches as Ruby's trying to figure out, oh my gosh, how does this work?

00;03;21;07 - 00;03;40;03
Speaker 2
What are these people? And you get sort of two different points of view of like the structure of the murder mystery but yeah, figuring out who did what, how it works, and then adding the element of magic, which can be, you know, kind of a thing and things in like a different way. It was super fun to kind of figure out because you solve rules with magic, of course.

00;03;40;17 - 00;03;49;22
Speaker 1
And that was going to be my next question is how did you approach building your magic system for this story and deciding what way you wanted to take? Yeah, different families.

00;03;49;22 - 00;04;08;04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So like there's four different families at this fancy dinner party where the hostess dies and starts this whole process and they all have different lines of magic that you realize over the course of the book are a little bit more connected than they think. There's blood, which is elemental, which is just celestial witches and then death witches.

00;04;08;13 - 00;04;26;10
Speaker 2
And they all do magic a little bit differently, but they're kind of like at their core from the same place, which is why they've banded together. And the secret societies sort of thing. And so figuring out the different ways their magic would work and how they would use it, especially in this tight confines, and they can use it against each other because that's in the rules.

00;04;26;13 - 00;04;30;10
Speaker 2
Was kind of fun to figure out. Yeah, for sure. I had spreadsheets.

00;04;31;13 - 00;04;34;03
Speaker 1
As I was going to ask If you're an outliner.

00;04;34;27 - 00;04;49;18
Speaker 2
I have to be because people need to know what I'm doing. Like I used to be a little bit more loose and like I would plot like certain spine like pieces of the book and then like if things happened in between, like whatever and then still kind of like that, if, if I'm surprised, the reader is going to be surprised.

00;04;49;18 - 00;05;04;29
Speaker 2
And so if my brain goes left from my island, I like, I'm like going left like I feel like my subconscious like never really let me down. So I do plan. But sometimes your first plan is not the best plan, and this story should go another way.

00;05;05;17 - 00;05;10;23
Speaker 1
That definitely happens. It's like that plotting, but also with the freedom to cancel it all.

00;05;10;23 - 00;05;13;24
Speaker 2
Yeah, for sure. A plan, sir. Yes.

00;05;14;16 - 00;05;17;04
Speaker 1
Which is appropriate. So there's some, some plant stuff there.

00;05;17;04 - 00;05;18;26
Speaker 2
This plants. Yeah. Happens. Yeah.

00;05;20;07 - 00;05;28;10
Speaker 1
So there's definitely some really strong knives out. Yes. Vibes. How much did you watch those shows to kind of pull inspiration?

00;05;28;10 - 00;05;49;19
Speaker 2
So I love mysteries. I have a background reading them. Like the first books I wrote were mysteries. Of course, that's not how it worked in publishing, but like I really always wanted to write one. And then with the popularity of Out, it was so fun to see people who are not necessarily people get like excited about the closed room murder mystery and like, yeah, it feels really claustrophobic and like everybody has motive and like figuring all of that out.

00;05;49;19 - 00;05;52;25
Speaker 2
And so I was like, I want to do that. But with magic. And I did.

00;05;53;28 - 00;05;54;22
Speaker 1
As one dance.

00;05;55;20 - 00;05;56;05
Speaker 2
Again.

00;05;57;19 - 00;06;01;19
Speaker 1
Going along with the crafting of the magic system. Since one of your main characters doesn't know it.

00;06;01;22 - 00;06;02;06
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;06;02;14 - 00;06;08;01
Speaker 1
How does that inform how you build her character? Yeah. And her world and her.

00;06;08;08 - 00;06;25;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, because she her world is turned totally upside down. I mean, first of all, she's in this dangerous situation, but also like, oh my God, magic would just exist crap. And she's expected people think that she's a witch. The way that the plot works and and so then she realizes she has to keep up this ruse but not actually do magic.

00;06;25;06 - 00;06;32;07
Speaker 2
And so they're kind of always coming up with reasons. She and her sister like to not do magic so that they'll know that you're not actually who they say they are.

00;06;32;14 - 00;06;34;11
Speaker 1
What is it? You've written several books. Yeah.

00;06;34;19 - 00;06;35;22
Speaker 2
This is my ninth book.

00;06;36;09 - 00;06;41;25
Speaker 1
Then several of those are magical. Mm hmm. Fantasy yes. What is it about that genre that you love so much?

00;06;41;29 - 00;07;00;19
Speaker 2
Oh, I just think it's so much fun. And I love writing for kids, so, like, I have two contemporary books and they, you know, a different audience than the way it finishes. But this is my first contemporary fantasy. I just, you know, in magic is fun, and I've explored in different ways. I wrote my debut with Sea Witch, which is about a witch who ends up becoming these witch.

00;07;01;07 - 00;07;19;08
Speaker 2
And then the sequel to that, I had to figure out how magic works through actual mermaids because they're magical beings, you know, like and it's sort of like a little like it's a it's a problem like that. You're trying to sort of write like magic works in different ways depending on the people. And so, like, setting up this magical system is completely different than those books.

00;07;19;08 - 00;07;43;26
Speaker 2
Like, but no matter what you do, you have to set rules and know when to break them or people will just like, call you. Yeah. Do you like hand waving you know, magic? It was magic. It's and it's more dramatic if you know the rules because then you're expecting certain things. And so then if things happen against those rules, then it gets to be more exciting.

00;07;44;07 - 00;07;50;24
Speaker 1
How much thought process goes into when to break the rules so that you don't break your readers trust, right?

00;07;50;24 - 00;07;54;05
Speaker 2
Oh, a lot. Yeah. You don't want to do that until like the third act.

00;07;54;11 - 00;08;02;17
Speaker 1
Like biting into the magic is so important for the books. And if you break it in a way that doesn't make sense, you can lose them so easily.

00;08;02;17 - 00;08;20;05
Speaker 2
100% people like, Well, that jumped the shark and throw it across the room. I don't want them to do that. And this well, not to get too spoilery, but like in the back started. Like it's not a broken rule, but it's the magic is elevated in a way that the reader and some of the witches don't expect because it's just not something they've seen in their lifetime.

00;08;20;28 - 00;08;34;17
Speaker 2
But it does follow the rules. So like that was kind of fun to figure out. Like, OK, if you're going to simplify this, how are you going to do it? And and I don't want to say don't give them away it happens.

00;08;34;21 - 00;08;49;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. There was a quote that I really loved from it, and it was if there's one thing I've learned from being a bookseller that people really love unraveling a mystery. And it's so true the readers love a good mystery. What is it about them combining mystery with your magic that you love so much?

00;08;49;29 - 00;09;13;16
Speaker 2
I mean, like, I love reading mystery and I love the explosion. That happened and the contemporary side of Y.A.. And, you know, it's McManus and Holly Jackson and Jennifer Barnes, like, really taking, like, the way in history to like the next level. And so adding that element of which is super fun, like magic in general, because it just seemed like the next evolution of that.

00;09;13;23 - 00;09;17;01
Speaker 2
And so you watch The Office or have you seen the Office?

00;09;17;01 - 00;09;18;00
Speaker 1
OK, many moons ago.

00;09;18;00 - 00;09;39;13
Speaker 2
OK, but so Michael Scott and he at one point is taking improv classes and he is Michael Strahan. And as that's always the character he plays in these in these classes and he always pulls out a gun and he's like, well, what's the most dramatic thing I do is pull a gun and shoots mine. Like if it's in front and I go like, it's like I don't like it's like uplifts, like moving everything up.

00;09;39;13 - 00;09;42;14
Speaker 2
Just the lower level, like, just like Michael Strahan in has done.

00;09;43;01 - 00;09;44;10
Speaker 1
My handwriting is so bad.

00;09;44;12 - 00;09;46;28
Speaker 2
Mine's terrible journalistically.

00;09;48;01 - 00;09;50;17
Speaker 1
Because we write so fast, it's like, scribble the note out before I.

00;09;50;17 - 00;09;51;23
Speaker 2
Forget. Yes, try to.

00;09;51;23 - 00;09;56;08
Speaker 1
Get all the quotes out before I forget. Yep. Happens. Yeah. Yeah. So you were you were a journalist who was a journalist.

00;09;56;08 - 00;09;56;15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;09;56;22 - 00;10;00;21
Speaker 1
What did you learn while being a journalist that has helped you write it.

00;10;01;06 - 00;10;25;25
Speaker 2
Been so helpful like a knowing how to work with an editor. I'm not precious about anything. I can always work to a deadline. No problem, of course. And then also, I think as far as writing dialog, that feels real. I always tell people to read the newspaper because you if you're reading the story, you're seeing different points of view from different people and how they will say it and I think that that's very informative when you're writing dialogs because you don't want everyone to sound the same.

00;10;26;22 - 00;10;42;21
Speaker 2
You want them to have different points of view. And you know, reading real news stories is a way to teach yourself to do that. And I think as a journalist, you kind of learn to hear quotes like as doesn't say them, you like focusing in on that. And that's what I want. And I think that's helped me in writing.

00;10;42;21 - 00;10;51;13
Speaker 2
Like sometimes I'll write out the dialog first and then kind of build around it. And you know, when you're a journalist, sometimes you get the quotes and you like order them and then you structure your story.

00;10;51;18 - 00;10;55;08
Speaker 1
Do you also have the problem where you can't write if you're on debt unless you're on deadline?

00;10;55;08 - 00;11;07;22
Speaker 2
I give myself deadlines for sure. Like and, and you know, and sometimes it's an artificial deadline. Then dealing myself over. But like it helps because I need to know when these things are due and I need to be able to plan out multiple projects a year.

00;11;07;25 - 00;11;09;11
Speaker 1
So multiple projects a year.

00;11;09;18 - 00;11;10;02
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;11;10;06 - 00;11;12;18
Speaker 1
What do you have cooking next?

00;11;12;23 - 00;11;38;02
Speaker 2
Next. After the lazy counter that comes out September 17th. Next fall, I have an upper middle grade called Running Back to you. It's actually in Kansas. Yeah. In the high stakes world of high school track about a girl who's never been kissed and lies about it and comes up with this whole plan to join the track team and get the attention of her twin brothers best friend so she can get her first kiss and not actually lied about.

00;11;38;02 - 00;11;58;04
Speaker 2
She's trying to retroactively fix it so it's real cute. And it's about ninth graders. My son just finished his ninth grade year, so it's kind of fun to write about kids that are the same age as mine. And then in 20, 26 I had a book called Such a Witch, which is Clews meets Wednesday. So it's part fluffy romcom, part murder mystery and literal witch hunt.

00;11;58;04 - 00;11;58;24
Speaker 2
And it's super fun.

00;11;58;24 - 00;12;04;09
Speaker 1
It sounds like a good old time. It's also you ran ultramarathons.

00;12;04;17 - 00;12;14;23
Speaker 2
Well, yeah, I did. I still run a lot, but I don't have time to actually go to the marathon. So. So run like 50, 60 miles a week, but I don't actually show up to any races to visit.

00;12;15;00 - 00;12;16;24
Speaker 1
But there's so much running, but.

00;12;16;24 - 00;12;31;28
Speaker 2
A lot of thinking. It's like my plodding time and I also listen to a lot of audio books during that time, and I will like, stop on the side of the road and like, thumbtack notes and like, look out at like before the sun rises. I'm sure people driving by are like, what the hell?

00;12;32;27 - 00;12;42;10
Speaker 1
It happens. And that's something people don't think about a lot of, like, the thinking part is part of the writing. Yes, it just because you're not fingers on keyboard does not mean you're not working on your book.

00;12;42;11 - 00;12;53;00
Speaker 2
100%, like so many times, you're like mulling over a problem and you're just trying to get there before you go on because you know that like once you have that worked out, it'll all be a breeze relatively.

00;12;53;15 - 00;12;54;15
Speaker 1
Anything else you want to talk about?

00;12;55;13 - 00;12;57;01
Speaker 2
I don't have anything else I can talk.

00;12;58;14 - 00;12;59;01
Speaker 1
Also there's.

00;12;59;01 - 00;13;01;28
Speaker 2
Secrets. There's always secrets and apology. Sure.

00;13;02;08 - 00;13;06;13
Speaker 1
But the last question we often ask, because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;13;06;14 - 00;13;29;26
Speaker 2
Oh my gosh. I just started the Thursday Murder Mystery series, and and there's like, I don't know, four books, D'albert Lake. But Morgan Madsen told me about them that you all asked, and I was like, I'm going to read that. And they're just these lovely, like, British hilarious, like, murder mysteries that are set in an old folks home, but they're hysterical and like, it's very calming and soothing for how chaotic the world is.

00;13;29;26 - 00;13;37;19
Speaker 2
And so right now, that's like, I'm just like living in that world, just having the audio book go in my brain. Nice, lovely book stuff.

00;13;37;27 - 00;13;40;27
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk about your book. Thank you.

00;13;43;19 - 00;14;01;28
Speaker 1
Thanks again to Sarah for taking time out of her San Diego Comic-Con schedule. Which San Diego is wild and scheduling these things is a challenge sometimes but we made it work, and I am so thankful that we did. Even though we were asked each other quite a bit about our school choices. It's fine, we're fine. We're still OK with each other.

00;14;01;28 - 00;14;18;02
Speaker 1
It's good if you want to get a hold of the lives we conjure or any of Sarah's other books, the links to do so are in the show notes for you. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the literary podcast. Give us some stars and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.