38. MARK SIEGEL: Launching an adult graphic novel imprint and fostering a creative lab

You may have heard of the publishing imprint First Second (aka :01). It's been around for years, giving readers graphic novels for all ages. Well, it's doing so well that Creative Director Mark Siegel is branching out. 23rd Street Books is a brand new imprint, which will specifically focus on adult graphic novels of all genres! Check out this conversation with Mark for an inside look at the publishing machine and magic of art.

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Sailor Twain
Tiny Dancer
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5 Worlds (Five book set)
Sailor Twain
Tiny Dancer
Long Night Moon

Transcript

00;00;04;05 - 00;00;24;04
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie Ears literary hype woman and I get to bring you something really cool today. This is not a normal author conversation vibe. This is a conversation with a publisher which when I went into it, I kind of had this mindset that it wasn't going to be all that interesting because it's a publisher, not an author.

00;00;24;04 - 00;00;42;27
Speaker 1
It's like, what? Blah, blah, blah? I just had it in my head that it wasn't going to be anything too special. And then I met Marc Siegel, and he was absolutely wonderful. This is one of my favorite conversations I've done in a very long time. He's so transparent about the publishing industry and what's coming up, and I just really thoroughly enjoy talking to him.

00;00;42;28 - 00;01;07;25
Speaker 1
If you have not heard of him, he is the creative director behind The First Second, which is a graphic novel imprint. And so now that branching out for a second has become so successful that now they're separating things into teens and Y.A. and adult. So the new adult imprint is called 23rd Street Books, and it is going to be publishing graphic novels for adults, both fiction and nonfiction.

00;01;08;19 - 00;01;16;12
Speaker 1
So Mark and I got to talk about all of this and what it's like putting these books out. So without any further ado, here is this really fun conversation with Marc Siegel.

00;01;21;15 - 00;01;32;18
Speaker 1
Welcome to Literary Hype. It's so exciting to have you on here to talk about a new adventure that you're taking part in. So for anyone who hasn't heard of 2320 third street books yet, tell us what this is all about.

00;01;32;27 - 00;01;57;20
Speaker 2
So 23rd Street is a new creation born out of first second books. Now, maybe some of your viewers don't know for a second. First Second is McMillan's graphic novel house. And we've been going for about eight years or so, and we've been publishing in all age categories. So we've been doing children's, we've been doing teen, and we've been doing adult all graphic novels.

00;01;58;09 - 00;02;40;16
Speaker 2
But where we were best known for our young readers and some people who follow us over the years, don't always realize that we have adult graphic novels because basically in America, publishing adult books and young readers books is they're two very different games. So what we decided this year, as for second, is booming and is in the middle of this incredible renaissance of comics in America is we decided it's time to separate out our lists on the adult side and give it its own dedicated brand.

00;02;41;01 - 00;02;59;13
Speaker 2
And that brand is called 23rd Street Books. And that's named after our origins in New York City at the Flatiron Building, which was on 23rd Street. And so it's now basically a one plus two, three. So it's a natural growth.

00;02;59;19 - 00;03;05;00
Speaker 1
You definitely took my next question because I was going to ask about the name meaning. And if you had already caught on to the 01, two, three.

00;03;05;08 - 00;03;27;05
Speaker 2
The magic like first. Second is one of those weird names that kind of does this kind of strange short circuit in your brain. And, and it's worked for us beautifully. It's it's, it's really odd. And it's one of those things that just turned up. It just turned up. And then afterwards, all kinds of interesting meanings became apparent. And 23rd Street was the same way.

00;03;27;05 - 00;03;40;11
Speaker 2
We had all kinds of names. And then that one just dropped in. And then suddenly it was like, Oh yeah, it continues the same It's like we're continuing the adventure and expanding and growing, which is great.

00;03;40;16 - 00;03;45;04
Speaker 1
So then will Y.A. graphic novels eventually get its own and be something with great.

00;03;45;15 - 00;03;48;24
Speaker 2
I had not thought of that, but maybe.

00;03;49;04 - 00;03;49;06
Speaker 1
You.

00;03;49;26 - 00;03;51;14
Speaker 2
See, it's a great number.

00;03;51;17 - 00;03;53;18
Speaker 1
It was my high school basketball and volleyball number.

00;03;54;26 - 00;03;57;28
Speaker 2
I I mean, 23. When you start looking at where 23 shows up.

00;03;58;17 - 00;04;05;00
Speaker 1
23 points numbers, it's like in a lot of races. Yes. Isn't there a whole movie about it with Jim Carrey? Yeah.

00;04;05;04 - 00;04;15;02
Speaker 2
And yeah. And in fact, when you start when you're aware of 23, you start seeing everywhere in movies, like if it's a hotel room, it's 23. If, you know, there's like a lot of 20 threes.

00;04;15;02 - 00;04;28;04
Speaker 1
One of those numbers that just haunts you a little bit. Yeah. So it's a great number and a great plan. And you touched on the comics renaissance that we're having with adults Why do you think this is? What we're seeing right now is a trend in books.

00;04;28;10 - 00;04;52;10
Speaker 2
I mean, I feel like it's, it's definitely more than a fad. It's been, you know, an explosion of this kind of visual. You know, some people talk about visual literacy. In our day and age, we're flooded with imagery, you know, so it makes sense that the kind of the art form of words and pictures in marriage is is resonant.

00;04;52;12 - 00;05;14;29
Speaker 2
You know, it's like people love it. And I love prose. I love novels, you know? And, you know, for a long time, there was this stigma with comics in America. And then it became clear, you know, the educators got on quickly. They were like, hey, wait a minute, this these comics are producing lifelong readers who are voracious readers of everything.

00;05;15;20 - 00;05;37;04
Speaker 2
And, like, so the prejudices against it have been falling away. And now, you know, there's also an explosion in America and in Canada of this, the younger and the teen middle grades. And those people are growing up and starting families and you know, joining the adult world. So we're here for them.

00;05;37;05 - 00;05;41;02
Speaker 1
What would you say to someone who believes that graphic novels don't count as books?

00;05;41;10 - 00;05;43;25
Speaker 2
It's OK. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

00;05;44;17 - 00;05;45;07
Speaker 1
But you can be wrong.

00;05;45;10 - 00;06;06;08
Speaker 2
But you can be wrong. People focus on a format, but it's really their voices. So it's like, you know, you're if you think if you're a prose reader, or a nonfiction reader, you know, you have your favorite authors and it's like it's their inner world you're tapping into. So I think for those people oftentimes it's like they just haven't had that entry point.

00;06;06;13 - 00;06;34;25
Speaker 2
You know, it's a bit like it's like the first time you try a really, really good wine. Like, I remember having this moment with my wife. We were really young and and, you know, it was like we thought drinking was, you know, a keg at a party. And then one day somebody gave us a bottle of wine, like a fancy wine with a platter of cheeses.

00;06;35;14 - 00;07;05;13
Speaker 2
And we let it sit for almost a year on top of a fridge, and we just ignore. And then one day we're like, oh, yeah, let's try that. And then I remember having that first sip and going, Oh, this is why people go crazy about this stuff. And like all this, you know? And I think with with a good graphic novel, sometimes you just need an entry points you need to connect to a great voice, you know?

00;07;05;13 - 00;07;30;19
Speaker 2
And then you're like and like my wife, for example, she's not like a comics reader. That's not her first choice. And we've had a funny exchange together over the years because she's, you know, her background is in ballet and ballet doesn't really do it for me. But she got me in to seeing Symphony and C at American Ballet Theater with like one of the best ballerinas in the world.

00;07;31;12 - 00;07;51;03
Speaker 2
And I was transported and I was like, OK, I get it. You know, I get it. I'm like, it's not just silly nonsense with no story and no nuts. It was like this is I get that some people, you know, are moved like really deeply. Right. And it's the same thing with a good it's a good graphic novel.

00;07;52;04 - 00;07;56;00
Speaker 2
A good a good novel. A good a good movie.

00;07;56;00 - 00;07;56;23
Speaker 1
It applies to.

00;07;56;23 - 00;07;57;26
Speaker 2
All it does.

00;07;57;26 - 00;08;06;15
Speaker 1
Love entertainment. It does. So for someone looking to potentially give graphic novels a try, how do you suggest they approach finding the right vibe? For them?

00;08;06;28 - 00;08;28;23
Speaker 2
That's a great question. I mean, in a way, you know, what we've been trying to do with for a second for the last almost two decades and there are a lot of good houses out there. But, you know, now there there is a lot of good review. You know, some serious reviewers turn to graphic novels so you can look things up and see, you know, what speaks to you.

00;08;29;18 - 00;08;58;21
Speaker 2
And, you know, is it and it might be genre. You know, there's some great romances, some great sci fi, there's some great there's also great memoir. And sometimes it's very surprising. You just connect, you know, like there are certain people like an author like Vera Gal who just now has a new book out called Plain Jane and The Mermaid, and she's one of those people you don't need the secret handshake of comics.

00;08;59;19 - 00;09;26;12
Speaker 2
And she connects with people who are not comics readers. And there's there's a few like that. So that's I would take that tack. I would ask around, look around. And if you have a good local library, the librarians are way ahead. You know, they have been for many years now, and they're great at giving you advice, you know, like especially if they know you're reading diet, you're like, oh, OK, you're into the fourth wing.

00;09;26;13 - 00;09;29;20
Speaker 2
Then you need to, you know, go here, you know, that kind of thing.

00;09;29;22 - 00;09;33;06
Speaker 1
So what's the vibe that people can expect from 23rd street books?

00;09;33;08 - 00;10;02;23
Speaker 2
It's in a sense we're keeping in the same spirit as first second. So it's an author house. It's about, you know, people with extraordinary wellsprings in them that are that have found that wellspring and are producing from it. So you're going to see, you know, some daring stuff, some, you know, visually. Wow. Breathtaking art in many different styles.

00;10;03;13 - 00;10;34;28
Speaker 2
And you're going to see, you know, many different approaches to storytelling, some some some really fun nonfiction you know, we're going to be careful. I feel like there are certain trends that we don't necessarily want to follow on. You know, there's a lot of very heavy kind of trauma based memoir. And and I think, you know, we these are not easy times for humans generally on this planet.

00;10;36;03 - 00;10;58;27
Speaker 2
And I think when it comes to adults especially, we're all a bit worn out. You know, if it's not one thing, it's another we've we've taken a bashing in the last couple of generations. And I think a lot of people need a treat. You know, they need it. And some of it will be escapist, some of it a little more serious, some of it informative.

00;10;59;15 - 00;11;12;10
Speaker 2
But, you know, I'm looking for lift and something upbeat and something that is kind of nourishing to the soul and not just shining a light on the dark corners of the human story.

00;11;12;19 - 00;11;23;05
Speaker 1
I saw a quote. I don't remember how it was you or the vice president that called it a creative lab is what you're trying to build. How do you establish a creative lab within a publishing house?

00;11;23;13 - 00;11;48;23
Speaker 2
Great. I that's one of the best questions I've ever been asked. I mean it. So yeah. How do you so you know, part of the problem is you have the pressure of the there's just impossible dance between art and commerce. And an editor is the punching bag in between the two and it's like there's no winning. You know, you're going to you're going to one is always stepping on the toes of the other.

00;11;49;07 - 00;12;30;11
Speaker 2
But I think as an editor there's times when you need to be the champion of someone's genius. And and it means sometimes making decisions that are just in the short term counter commercial or counterintuitive even basis. Like sometimes you sign someone up and, you know, it's like they need to run at like two or three books, but they've got something incredible in them, you know, and and it's not always easy, you know, in the pressures of the marketplace, you know, and and so sometimes it means taking a risk.

00;12;30;11 - 00;12;51;14
Speaker 2
But one thing I learned over the years with first second is that typically when I think and I found a cash cow, it tanks. And when I find something that I'm like, you know, I don't care. This is just too good. We have to do it. Oftentimes, those are the ones that end up making money.

00;12;51;22 - 00;12;58;01
Speaker 1
How do you learn to trust yourself and your instincts when you see something you believe in, not do as well as you thought?

00;12;58;09 - 00;13;26;26
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, it happens I mean, there are times there there's definitely heartbreak, you know? I mean, I think in any creative field for creators, there's a challenge. It's like you've got to stay true. And and follow that North Star, right? But sometimes you get you know, you have to be able to kind of take a fall and get up.

00;13;26;26 - 00;13;56;04
Speaker 2
And it's like and it's hard when you talk about a graphic novel, someone might have worked on something for two, three, four years. And I you know, I have my own projects. I know what it's like to work on a project for a long time and then put it out and it disappears in like invisibility. And you have to kind of, you know, find a way to be OK with that somehow and kind of, you know, or just change your line of work, you know.

00;13;56;22 - 00;13;59;09
Speaker 1
What's the best lesson you've learned throughout your publishing career.

00;14;00;14 - 00;14;01;27
Speaker 2
About publishing or.

00;14;02;01 - 00;14;05;07
Speaker 1
In general? I mean, you can do one about publishing in one engine just in general.

00;14;06;11 - 00;14;47;02
Speaker 2
I mean, the publishing thing, I feel like I started knowing very little about publishing, and I understand a little bit more the forces and the contradictions at play like what we were just talking about with money versus vision, how you know, I'd say with going against the trend of American business today, you know, I think there are rewards for those who who play a long term game.

00;14;47;15 - 00;15;21;19
Speaker 2
You know, everything is pushing us to go for the short term and the rapid success and it's like a lot of publishing today has has become like the kind of the Hollywood model, right? It's like Blockbuster Weekend or it's a failure and that kind of greedy model doesn't actually produce great things. So I, I feel like the long game, you know, sometimes you have to kind of take the hit in the short term because you believe in something durable.

00;15;21;19 - 00;15;44;24
Speaker 2
So I'm interested in setting up a house that's going to be a great editorial home for creators for the next 50 years. So it's a bit of a different game than like, you know, are we and I'm lucky McMillan is privately owned. It's, it's, it's one of the big five houses in New York, but it's it's it's it's not a corporation.

00;15;44;29 - 00;15;48;28
Speaker 1
What are some of the books that people can expect to see in this first batch that comes out.

00;15;49;09 - 00;16;16;18
Speaker 2
So 2025. We have some amazing stuff I mean there's there is a guy Jesse Lonergan with a book called Drome which is sci fi. That's extraordinary. You're going to see something that's that's a web tune comic called Love Swamp and see which is amazing. There's a bestselling biography of George Lucas and The Making of Star Wars, which has been a hit in France, which we translated.

00;16;16;22 - 00;16;40;29
Speaker 2
And it's actually incredible that the artwork is amazing. It's like, you know, sometimes it's bios. It there's like this kind of wooden style like that that's supposed to be realistic and it's just like a bit dead. And this is like really expressive. But you recognize everybody. You recognize like Spielberg and Coppola. And and the cool thing is George Lucas totally was an underdog.

00;16;41;28 - 00;17;11;07
Speaker 2
And his story, it's a bit like Rocky. You're like it's like rousing to see this guy, you know? And he was up against, like, the Fox executives especially. They don't come off looking very good and it's great. So there's exciting stuff like that. There's I mean, there's some horror, there's some romance, there's some really cool nonfiction. There's a book on electricity and magnetism that's going to be like I think it's like it's like it's like Michael, Michael, Pollan level.

00;17;11;23 - 00;17;17;16
Speaker 1
So you can learn stuff and look at cool art. Yeah. Same time. Oh, lines.

00;17;17;16 - 00;17;41;13
Speaker 2
Yes. I mean, I would say stay tuned. You know, there's there there already is a lot of really good adult stuff. In the first second list, it's going to migrate over to 23rd street. But but it's there and that gives you a sense of what we're doing. And you know, I would mention a few like in the nonfiction side, there's a great biography of Putin called Accidental Czar.

00;17;42;08 - 00;18;09;04
Speaker 2
There's the gas leak nation book Dictatorship. It's easier than you think which is very funny, but also presses a few nerves in our in our times today and you know, and also the adventure zone is a great example of a of a huge runaway hit that we've been publishing in adult already. So we're not starting from scratch. That's for sure.

00;18;09;18 - 00;18;14;05
Speaker 1
Does it feel different not starting from scratch with this than it did with first?

00;18;14;05 - 00;18;42;22
Speaker 2
Second, very different. So first, second, you know, I was lucky to have some good mentors in publishing, but I mean, I started completely ignorant about the business of publishing and I had this crazy dream OK, we're going to make an author driven house, you know, a literary house for graphic novels. But how to do that you know, there was in a way, we have the benefit of all the mistakes I've made.

00;18;42;22 - 00;18;44;00
Speaker 2
Lots and lots of those.

00;18;45;00 - 00;18;47;13
Speaker 1
It makes mistakes in publishing. What are you talking about?

00;18;47;13 - 00;19;04;14
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. No, it's a science everyone's figured out down to. You know, it's funny because people do talk about publishing and, you know, as as if it was a science and everyone's very authoritative, but nobody really knows, you know, it's just it's.

00;19;04;14 - 00;19;06;25
Speaker 1
Like Fourth Wing. No one expected that to blow up, you.

00;19;07;06 - 00;19;10;23
Speaker 2
Know, that was you're speaking to a fan. I actually I'm a total sucker.

00;19;10;23 - 00;19;11;16
Speaker 1
I have an ark.

00;19;11;16 - 00;19;11;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;19;13;19 - 00;19;18;24
Speaker 1
I was on board earlier. I have a signed ark. I was. That was on early.

00;19;18;27 - 00;19;42;15
Speaker 2
Oh, I mean, you know, it's like actually, that's a great example of like, there's the in genre fiction, you know, there's some great stuff happening. And it's true in graphic novels as well. You know, and we just we're going to champion. I think the idea of having the new imprint is also so we can do the best job possible in that space.

00;19;42;15 - 00;19;46;12
Speaker 2
Which is it works differently than the kids space.

00;19;47;07 - 00;19;51;29
Speaker 1
How do you go about like starting an imprint just in general? Like, what is that process like?

00;19;52;04 - 00;20;22;29
Speaker 2
It's a weird leap of faith. You know, you kind of like it's like you declare an intention and it starts snowballing and next thing you know, there's like other people that are joining you in the, in the mission. And, and in my case, you know, I feel like they're kind of crazy dreams. And my teammates in editorial and design and production and managing editor are, you know, they know I'm kind of the crazy dreamer guy.

00;20;22;29 - 00;20;51;10
Speaker 2
You know, I have like, you know, schemes and and we try things and sometimes we fall on our face. I think that's the biggest one right now for anyone trying to do that is how do you build enough cushion so that you can take risks? Because I think the killer for creativity is this kind of very risk averse thinking where it's like, OK, we're going to cut out risk.

00;20;51;18 - 00;21;14;02
Speaker 2
So then you're going to just end up looking around and trying to do more of what already exists. But when you're talking to creatives, I think the best ones are they're there. They want to leap into the unknown. They want to do something that's never been done before and put outside and you know, this is the kind of imprint we're trying to build.

00;21;14;02 - 00;21;24;27
Speaker 2
So it's a it's a bit at times. It's like you have to just lean into the fear of it all. But the rewards are huge. You know, and then you end up setting trends that others will follow.

00;21;25;06 - 00;21;27;29
Speaker 1
What do you personally love about graphic novels and comics?

00;21;28;23 - 00;21;56;25
Speaker 2
I mean, I feel like I've always been a sucker for the the this magical alchemy of words and pictures. And and I love I love the written word, you know, I love I it's like but I think a novel works on a different part of your mind. So it's like a different part of you reading. And when you when when it's good, you know, you really do need to read the pictures as much as the dialog and the, you know, the writing.

00;21;57;15 - 00;22;09;05
Speaker 2
And then there's a kind of a third thing that's happening between the two. It's kind of like unseen art form. And I love that. I love that.

00;22;09;17 - 00;22;20;12
Speaker 1
So book talk and books diagram have been a huge part of pushing some of these books. Yes. And a lot of people got into it for the free books. So are you guys going to do any influencer programs with this and how people get into it?

00;22;20;15 - 00;22;42;27
Speaker 2
So yes and no. So 23rd Street, you know, we're launching in 20, 25. So we're just, you know, we're just now lining up the whole program. So the marketing and the publicity are yes, we do have some really fun stuff coming but it's like right now the plans are being hatched.

00;22;43;04 - 00;22;48;16
Speaker 1
Awesome. Well, the last question we always ask because this is literary hype, what books are you hyped about?

00;22;49;22 - 00;23;08;12
Speaker 2
I am hyped about the Daughter's War by Christopher Buell and I think you pronounce his name I read that The Black Tongue Thief, and I just loved the voice. I've been reading a little bit of Cosey fantasy.

00;23;08;23 - 00;23;09;22
Speaker 1
Like it's very trendy.

00;23;09;22 - 00;23;19;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, very trendy. I didn't know I was like falling onto a trend. I think I, I'm not sure where I picked up. It was like the, the lattes you know.

00;23;20;10 - 00;23;21;00
Speaker 1
Legends and Latin.

00;23;21;00 - 00;23;22;05
Speaker 2
Engines and lattes that.

00;23;22;05 - 00;23;23;27
Speaker 1
Got everybody into a cozy fantasy.

00;23;23;27 - 00;23;50;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. But so at the moment, I think my pleasure reading is a quite a lot of sci fi fantasy but those ones kind of pop out to mind. And then I also read Susanna Clark here in A-Z. It's probably not that recent but she had done, what was it, Nora and Strange. You remember that one.

00;23;51;23 - 00;23;53;01
Speaker 1
Sounds vaguely familiar.

00;23;53;01 - 00;24;09;18
Speaker 2
And has he is is is a of strange bizarre but incredibly rewarding delightful book to read. And I really recommend it. And it's a kind of book you don't say anything about. You just say just read it I and that's the one I would definitely hype.

00;24;10;00 - 00;24;13;16
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for taking time to talk about 23rd street books on literary heights.

00;24;13;16 - 00;24;15;12
Speaker 2
My pleasure Stephanie lovely to meet you.

00;24;17;28 - 00;24;38;26
Speaker 1
Thanks again to Marc for taking some time at San Diego Comic-Con to talk about 23rd street books and first second and what it's like to publish books and giving me secret information so I could surprise all of you on camera. That was really fun. If you haven't seen that conversation, definitely check that one out. Marc is also an author, so if you want to check out some of his books, the link to this are in the show notes as well as where to find him on social media.

00;24;38;27 - 00;24;47;19
Speaker 1
If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast. Give us some stories and share it with a friend. Thanks for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.