46. HEATHER WALTER: An origin story for Snow White's evil queen

Heather Walter has the perfect book to fill the fall vibes you're craving. "The Crimson Crown" is a sapphic and witchy origin story for Snow White's Evil Queen. This conversation explores how she approached the classic story and steered clear of Disney drama.

FOLLOW HEATHER

BUY THE BOOKS
Bookshop:
The Crimson Crown
Malice
Misrule

Amazon:
The Crimson Crown
Malice
Misrule

BUY THE AUDIOBOOK:
The Crimson Crown
Malice
Misrule

Transcript

00;00;12;13 - 00;00;29;09
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to the Literary Hype podcast. I am Stephanie here, literary hype woman and today's author conversation is a fun one that is perfect for this season and all the vibes that come with Fall. Today I'm talking to Heather Walters. She is the author of The Crimson Crown, which is an evil queen from Snow White's origin story.

00;00;29;20 - 00;00;51;29
Speaker 1
So if you love which eBooks Sapphic books, angsty books, you're going to enjoy this one. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Heather Walter welcome to Literary Hype. So exciting to have you on the temperature Crimson Crown. So for anybody who hasn't seen this online yet, what's it about?

00;00;52;10 - 00;01;07;05
Speaker 2
So Crimson Crown is a villain origin story focused on the evil queen and Snow White. And it is mashed up with the Tudors and very loosely based off the rise of Anne Boleyn. And it's got angsty Sapphic romance. So all of those things wrapped up.

00;01;07;05 - 00;01;17;13
Speaker 1
Retellings are really having a moment right now and origin stories as well. So what is it about revisiting these classic stories that we all know that has really just hit the spot and become really popular?

00;01;17;14 - 00;01;35;26
Speaker 2
I know that they seem to be having a moment now, but I personally think that retellings always have a moment because when you think about fairy tales, the Grimm brothers collected them back in the 1800s. They went around and like wrote them down. But the reason that they were able to write them down is because they had been retold for literally centuries.

00;01;35;26 - 00;01;57;02
Speaker 2
People would tell them around hearth fires and the kitchen bedsides and every telling of that tale varied based off who was the one telling it. And it also very under the situation that I was telling it as well. So like if someone's mom told a story that way and there aren't, you know, something else. And so really those stories are all retellings.

00;01;57;02 - 00;02;18;01
Speaker 2
And the ones that the Grimm brothers wrote down was just the version that they got in that moment. And so all of these stories really are retellings to begin with. The other thing that I love about retellings is that sometimes the reason that they would be different, that's because a certain lesson, what they'd want to, you know, portray a certain lesson or talk about a certain theme or whatever reason that they chose.

00;02;18;12 - 00;02;45;17
Speaker 2
But one thing that I think retellings modern retelling do really well is that they are kind of reclaiming these stories because a lot of these stories that we're reading are very exclusionary to some groups of people that are just not in there. And so it allows us to present this these stories with including some people that were left out of it, often purposely and kind of give them new life that way for a new generation.

00;02;45;17 - 00;03;04;23
Speaker 2
And so it resonates a little more with us than these, you know, outdated stories that were retold for so long, but they no longer reflect the world that we live in. And so it gives us a chance to keep them alive almost. And keep up that tradition of retelling and reclaiming and reforming these stories for the modern age.

00;03;05;05 - 00;03;12;09
Speaker 1
So this is an evil queen from Snow White Origin story. What was it about her that made you want to tell her story?

00;03;12;22 - 00;03;36;19
Speaker 2
She's so interesting and she's so cool. Even I think the evil queen is not is probably one of my first favorite characters. I just found her so much more fascinating than Snow White because she had the mirror which talked to her, which was awesome. And then she had like the potion layer below the palace. Like, she was just like so much cooler than Snow White or any other of the princesses, like Snow White, like cleaned.

00;03;37;15 - 00;03;39;07
Speaker 1
Cooked and no one wants that.

00;03;39;08 - 00;03;40;09
Speaker 3
No one wants.

00;03;40;09 - 00;03;42;06
Speaker 1
That. That's not princess behavior.

00;03;42;09 - 00;03;46;05
Speaker 2
And so, I mean, even sleeping beauty's like a sleep for someone of it. Like, I mean.

00;03;46;06 - 00;03;46;24
Speaker 1
That I would like.

00;03;47;13 - 00;04;14;15
Speaker 2
I mean, I guess sleeping through it, but still, like, boring, like, doesn't do the dark very is so much more interesting than her. So I was always drawn to her, but the thing that I noticed about her and about other female villains and even females in history where they are kind of boiled down to a certain set of motivations very traditional femme motivations of being pretty wanting a husband, wanting a baby.

00;04;15;09 - 00;04;37;11
Speaker 2
And none of those really resonated with me. And especially as I got older, I kind of thought, you are the most powerful woman in the land and you're going to try to kill your stepdaughter. Because you think that she's prettier than you like that didn't like quite compute. Like, I understand it on a basic human level, like we all hate that bitch sometimes.

00;04;37;28 - 00;04;40;18
Speaker 3
Just like you.

00;04;40;24 - 00;05;04;07
Speaker 2
And we we can we can definitely like have those base instincts and hatred, but when you're that powerful and you can do so much like the fact that she's fixated on that, I just didn't ring true to me. And so I wanted to examine some of these women and give them motivations that were not just these really flat stereotypical desires.

00;05;04;07 - 00;05;16;25
Speaker 2
And I wanted more for them. And I also wanted to explore for how they became who they were or who we know them to be, instead of just, like, being this vain, shallow person their entire life.

00;05;16;26 - 00;05;26;03
Speaker 1
With this story, you've been very open online about it being a bit of a struggle. So talk a little bit about why this was such a struggle and how you got through it.

00;05;26;06 - 00;05;49;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, this book was a struggle. I wrote the first version back in 2018 and is the book that got me my agent. And after you in publishing, after your agent, your agent is the one who shops at around two publishing houses. And so it did not sell to an editor at that point. But during that time I Ramallah's smell sold and then after a mouse Mr. Audiology was finished it was time for my next one.

00;05;49;12 - 00;06;06;12
Speaker 2
And so I wanted this one. So I rewrote it. That's where I kind of gave it the Tudor edge and kind of that's where I set it and it did sell, but there are still something off with it. And I can always just kind of tell with my own work like there's just something I just almost a physical feeling where I'm just like, I know that something is not quite right here.

00;06;07;07 - 00;06;25;02
Speaker 2
And so I kept writing and rewriting this book for like two solid years. Very definitely do not recommend. It was very difficult. Is that really the only thing I worked on, which was another like really sent me towards burnout with it. Like it was just the worst. But it finally clicked in July of 20.

00;06;25;02 - 00;06;29;06
Speaker 3
Three is August of 24. So it was.

00;06;29;17 - 00;06;54;25
Speaker 2
A whirlwind of rewriting it, copy edits, post-production like it was, it was awful. But it finally clicked. I mean, I say it was awful, it was intense, it was intense. I would have, I would do it again. I don't like to do things that way, but I would do it again. What finally clicked with me was there was a character that didn't belong that was really holding things up, and he was just a sweet and charming character.

00;06;55;08 - 00;07;15;23
Speaker 2
I call him Alan because he was just like this good, just good guy. But he's not a pinch. Yeah, not a can. He's Alan and actually compared letting him go to the scene in Titanic with Rose and Jack, and she, like, doesn't know that Jack has been dead for a while. Over there on the on the door or whatever.

00;07;15;23 - 00;07;26;05
Speaker 2
And I also did not know that this character had been dead for a while. And then she finally realizes, and she just has to just, you know, gets this little hand off her and lets him sink into the ocean.

00;07;26;23 - 00;07;30;04
Speaker 1
How painful was that for you to, like, chop out a whole character?

00;07;30;17 - 00;07;31;17
Speaker 2
Not really.

00;07;32;16 - 00;07;34;02
Speaker 1
He he's just Alan.

00;07;34;09 - 00;07;35;24
Speaker 3
Is a sweet guy.

00;07;36;13 - 00;07;55;17
Speaker 2
His scenes were cute and charming, but, like, he didn't belong. And I think I was mostly just relieved that I had found one of the hold ups that was not the only holdout, but I was relieved to have found one of the ways and the freedom that I had to let the story grow. Now that he was at the bottom of the ocean.

00;07;56;06 - 00;08;22;13
Speaker 2
Um, either I think Stern the other hold up was, and what helped me was I read story genius, and I'm skeptical of craft books. I highly respect authors who write them and put their advice out there for people to read very much respect those people who do that for me. I don't personally believe that every book can be written the same way.

00;08;23;10 - 00;08;43;18
Speaker 2
And I think you do have to explore and find the right way to write a book. Like I have to find a right way to write every new book that I write. And so a craft book can sometimes try to dilute things into this is their way. And so I kind of take them, I read them, and I take the things that resonate with me from those stories, and then I leave the rest.

00;08;44;09 - 00;08;57;29
Speaker 2
And so for that one, what really resonated with me is the focus on character back story. And I realized that my main character Eilis had no back story. She just kind of like appeared on the page. And anytime I said, you know, what about before this? Oh, I don't know.

00;08;58;22 - 00;09;03;06
Speaker 1
Which is especially troubling for when you're writing a or origin story.

00;09;03;12 - 00;09;04;03
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;09;04;10 - 00;09;05;21
Speaker 1
That makes it very difficult.

00;09;05;28 - 00;09;06;14
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;09;06;14 - 00;09;08;10
Speaker 1
I have an origin story for the origin story.

00;09;08;10 - 00;09;09;15
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes.

00;09;09;21 - 00;09;11;03
Speaker 1
So that makes sense that it would be a problem.

00;09;11;03 - 00;09;31;18
Speaker 2
It was a problem. And so once I sat down and kind of shifted some character relationships to make make them more entwined like Cassandra the high which and early or previous drafts actually not until July of 23 was not I was actual mom. She was just like the high, which of the cover. And they did not have an intense relationship the way that they did.

00;09;32;03 - 00;09;58;28
Speaker 2
So I shifted that and her sister didn't appear until July of 23 who's a pivotal person in the story so shifted those relationships worked on that back story and it with what happened to was passed just like what happens in our past it informed her present and also her future. Not having one is kind of like pretending that you or I don't have a past.

00;09;58;28 - 00;10;05;02
Speaker 2
Like everything that has happened before us informs us where we are now. Coconut trees. Like we didn't just fall out of the coconut tree.

00;10;05;07 - 00;10;05;20
Speaker 1
It's actually.

00;10;06;17 - 00;10;08;16
Speaker 3
Not. Yes.

00;10;09;08 - 00;10;24;16
Speaker 1
So with Origin Story, you have a base that we all know with Disney's Snow White and the classic tales that have been told. So when you're approaching writing this, how do you go about deciding what pieces of the original make it into your version?

00;10;24;17 - 00;10;25;16
Speaker 2
Nothing from Disney.

00;10;27;20 - 00;10;28;06
Speaker 3
Valid.

00;10;29;06 - 00;10;33;03
Speaker 2
I say that for the litigious mouse. That's always listening for me.

00;10;33;14 - 00;10;33;24
Speaker 3
True.

00;10;34;20 - 00;11;02;05
Speaker 2
For real, I did have someone sort of ask me like, How can you write these when they're owned by Disney? And Disney doesn't actually own the fairy tales. The fairy tales are public domain, so they're up for grabs. Anyone can retell them, but we do. We are very careful with any imagery or anything that Disney's IP, like, for example, the name Maleficent, Maleficent, turning into a dragon, like those kinds of things we steer clear of and kind of like come up with our own thing.

00;11;03;01 - 00;11;24;12
Speaker 2
So for when I do my retellings, I do start with I look at the bones of the story and just kind of like the narrative arc of what happens and what everybody knows happens. But I like to take an inspired by take on it instead of the straight up, like, this is what happens, because then my characters can grow into their own without being confined by the story.

00;11;24;21 - 00;11;46;24
Speaker 2
But I want people to recognize what it is. And so I like to put in like imagery or events that are for sure going to let them know that this is what the story is. So like in Malice, Malice was a Sleeping Beauty retelling. We did have a moment where the princess pricks her finger and falls asleep. That kind of thing in Crimson Crown, they're apples everywhere.

00;11;47;17 - 00;12;07;08
Speaker 2
You've got mirrors. But my main character actually with The Evil Queen, we know her as someone who's obsessed with mirrors, obsessed with her own reflection. But this is an origin story, so I thought it would be cool to flip it. And she's actually hates her reflection and doesn't like looking at herself, doesn't like other people looking at her, which was great when I was writing her.

00;12;08;07 - 00;12;24;23
Speaker 2
And so I have that aspect of it. And then we had the Princess Blood Win, and then we had watching. I was kind of in the white court kind of seeing where this destiny, this momentum was taking her that would eventually she would become the queen.

00;12;25;05 - 00;12;44;02
Speaker 1
So in pulling from the Brothers Grimm stories, those are much darker than the Disney versions. And this book is darker than you would think for like a Disney princess origin story. So talk a little bit about how the Grimm darkness played into what you worked with in the vibe you were going for.

00;12;44;02 - 00;13;01;17
Speaker 2
I mean, directly. And I just I love the darker vibe. And, you know, Disney will flirt with that a little bit, like the scene where Snow White is running through the forest is super dark. It's spooky, it's scary. And then the scenes with the Evil Queen are scary. You know, they're cool. And that's what I was always drawn to.

00;13;01;17 - 00;13;20;00
Speaker 2
With the fairy tales. I was never one like when the birds come and, like, dress her and stuff like that, like, I guess that's OK and stuff. But like, no, I like the parts, like in the Cinderella when she opens the door to her stepmother's room and like, you just see the eyes glowing. Like, that was that's that's the image that I have of that where I just I just love that.

00;13;20;00 - 00;13;49;29
Speaker 2
So I always want my stories to have this element of darkness. And I feel like we're drawn to that as readers and as people. You know, we like the light, we like the happy ever after we like the fluffy. But we are also drawn to that darkness as much as we fear it. And I played with that, too, I think in the book with Eilis being afraid of darkness and her own darkness inside of herself and really learning that it's OK to embrace it and it's OK that it's there.

00;13;50;10 - 00;14;09;12
Speaker 2
But yeah, I love the Grimm version so much. They're so cool. Like, I think if you're listening, you may know the original ending to the Snow White Fairy tale is that the evil queen has to dance in hot iron shoes until she's dead, which going to have a whole other conversation about like, Snow White is this like Disney princess, the singing to birds?

00;14;09;12 - 00;14;22;22
Speaker 2
And, you know, just this overall good person. She goes from that to ordering her stepmother's death in this very horrific way. Like that is not Disney princess no.

00;14;23;13 - 00;14;36;06
Speaker 1
It's I mean, the way you brought that into the story was really cool, especially with that tapestry and like the way you described how that would look if it was made into a tapestry, it was really cool to think about, like how to make those colors pop like that.

00;14;36;06 - 00;14;36;15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;14;36;25 - 00;14;39;10
Speaker 1
It's very cool. I appreciated it. Yay, Art.

00;14;39;16 - 00;14;40;07
Speaker 2
Yay, art.

00;14;41;16 - 00;14;53;15
Speaker 1
So there is a lot of magic in this book. So touch a little bit on how you craft your magic systems and build your worlds for these big, epic stories that kind of have something that exists. But you're flipping it quite a bit.

00;14;53;23 - 00;15;03;01
Speaker 2
I don't like to think too much in the nitty gritty of magic, and I think that's because I get really impatient and I'm just like, How does this work? I don't know. It's magic.

00;15;03;21 - 00;15;04;27
Speaker 3
It still works.

00;15;05;12 - 00;15;31;02
Speaker 2
So for this one, I knew I wanted the magic system is something that shifted drastically throughout. It was just kind of like the craft for a while, and they could do spells and stuff, but as it started coming together, I knew I wanted the witches to be very organized. And I liked this idea because they were celebrated and the covens were celebrated, and I thought if that was the case, then they'd really need to be organized.

00;15;31;02 - 00;15;50;28
Speaker 2
And if they're organized, then they're going to have different factions of what they can do because they kind of hone their craft in certain ways. I thought sometimes that kind of organization is helpful and sometimes it is not, and sometimes we start with an organization like that and they kind of like corrupts. And so I thought about what would happen.

00;15;51;13 - 00;16;17;14
Speaker 2
I imagine Maggot Magic as a bureaucracy almost, and it's like, what would happen if they did organize all their magic that way and they did stick to that because the emphasis is placed so highly on whether or not the spirits accept you, whether or not you're given this gift by the spirits and where you are in your coven and I think in the beginning, because it all started with like the ancients and how they sacrifice to form the blood stones and save everybody from Malcolm, and that was very good and celebrated.

00;16;17;25 - 00;16;48;15
Speaker 2
But sometimes when we're chasing after or revering this thing that happens, it's like we go too far and we forget other things and we place too much of an emphasis on something instead of, you know, valuing the structure of something rather than individual individuality. And I think I live feels that because she doesn't fit into this place that she is supposed to fit into and she feels like she's not part of this big overarching community that she's supposed to be part of.

00;16;49;00 - 00;17;06;22
Speaker 2
And it pushes her to this other form of magic. And so that's what I wanted. I knew that there was going to be magic, the witches magic. And then I knew if there had that and Alice doesn't fit into that, then we needed a different kind of magic. We needed the darkness. And so that's where Malcolm came in, which I page the word now.

00;17;06;22 - 00;17;11;22
Speaker 2
And because it sounds malam is Latin for Apple. And so I was.

00;17;11;23 - 00;17;14;19
Speaker 1
Oh, look at you. So tricky. Yeah.

00;17;15;03 - 00;17;26;13
Speaker 2
And then it also kind of sounds like of this book that was published in 1486 called I think it's called Mellitus Alpha Calm. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but it basically.

00;17;26;21 - 00;17;28;00
Speaker 1
Confidence you got it.

00;17;28;09 - 00;17;43;21
Speaker 2
Translates to the Hammer Witches and it was a book that was used to describe what like This is what a witch is and also this is how you find a witch. So like in Monty Python, you know, like burn her, you know, sticker in the water, she turns into a duck or something. I forget, you know, all their like weird roles.

00;17;44;03 - 00;17;48;23
Speaker 2
It would have come out, you know, not around that. I think Monty Python was like 1100s. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's my.

00;17;48;23 - 00;17;49;03
Speaker 3
Bible.

00;17;49;13 - 00;18;00;12
Speaker 2
That's where you want it to be. But that book came out in four, two days. So it would have been around and known and referenced in the time of Anne Boleyn. And so that's where Malin comes from.

00;18;00;20 - 00;18;11;29
Speaker 1
And with Anne Boleyn. What was your research process like to find these little historical details in historical setting pieces to work into this story that you've also shared some of on Instagram?

00;18;12;01 - 00;18;40;23
Speaker 2
Yes, I have. I had a large knowledge base because Anne Boleyn was one of my hyper fixations as a teenager, and so I didn't have to do a whole lot of like fresh digging. I've just always I've been obsessed with her for so long. And so I had a wealth of knowledge. The one thing that was new for me, I say new within the last like decade of my life, was the idea that she was not her motivations were not as they are often portrayed in media.

00;18;41;15 - 00;19;02;18
Speaker 2
So we have pretty much exclusive media reputation, representations of her, of being the seductress and the homewrecker and wanting the crown just because she wants to be queen. And I would also argue that that's not necessarily a bad thing, because then we're kind of getting into the territory of like what are women allowed to want? You know? So even if that was her motivation, that's fine.

00;19;02;29 - 00;19;20;24
Speaker 2
But less was less talked about is like her charity product projects that she did while she was queen and she didn't have to do any of them. And her fight with Cromwell right before she died where she was trying to pass the poor tax and actually help the impoverished and that butted heads with him. And then all of a sudden there's a warrant for her arrest.

00;19;20;24 - 00;19;40;21
Speaker 2
Like I don't think that's and to tell, you know, so I wanted to play with this idea that she was not the person that is portrayed a lot of the time or that historians will have us believe that of course, she lived 500 years ago. So like we'll never know, like who she actually was its purpose person and what her true motivations were.

00;19;41;05 - 00;19;57;02
Speaker 2
But I wanted to play with that. And I did go to the UK in November, um, and really just visited like her home. And however I took my terror attack with me to her. How many heaver? That was really cool. I like did a little reading in her what what they believe might have been her bedroom because again, we'll never know.

00;19;58;00 - 00;20;12;18
Speaker 2
And then Hampton Court where she lived as queen and then the tower of course, where she died. So it was, it was really cool to go there. And then I tried to, um, just think about these little details about her life and slip them in here and there.

00;20;12;19 - 00;20;15;20
Speaker 1
I was going to ask if you went to the tower and did the tour with the Beefeaters.

00;20;16;01 - 00;20;27;06
Speaker 2
I did not do that. I don't know if we had time for that or we had been in the tower before. And I was just like, it's OK. So there's no touristy.

00;20;27;18 - 00;20;28;09
Speaker 3
As it.

00;20;28;09 - 00;20;29;25
Speaker 1
Is, but it's like the test.

00;20;30;04 - 00;20;42;18
Speaker 2
Is, is creepy, is creepy. I like it. I, I get really obsessed with my other hyper fixation as the princes and like what really happened to them because I love how, like, history is pretty much just like, no, that guy was an imposter. And I was like.

00;20;43;00 - 00;20;46;02
Speaker 3
Could happen to him. Like, it totally.

00;20;46;02 - 00;20;46;19
Speaker 2
Could have been him.

00;20;47;13 - 00;20;50;28
Speaker 1
The Beefeaters really do not like. That's the glass sculpture.

00;20;51;27 - 00;20;52;27
Speaker 2
Of the princess.

00;20;52;27 - 00;20;55;12
Speaker 1
Of the wear the pillow for where they did.

00;20;55;22 - 00;20;56;11
Speaker 2
This is just.

00;20;56;12 - 00;21;07;10
Speaker 1
They really, really do not like that. They have they like that. They're like, oh, look, people died. And so we're going to put glass out there. So they were telling everybody in my tour to write letters to get it removed because they don't like it.

00;21;08;01 - 00;21;09;03
Speaker 2
What would they want to put there?

00;21;09;04 - 00;21;10;19
Speaker 1
I have no idea, but they really don't know.

00;21;10;19 - 00;21;12;09
Speaker 2
I think it should be March like this is.

00;21;12;11 - 00;21;16;00
Speaker 1
I think it's more the, like, delicate, dainty glass pillow.

00;21;16;06 - 00;21;19;27
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. The Cinderella pillow doesn't fit. I do have to agree with that.

00;21;19;27 - 00;21;21;04
Speaker 1
And it's very weird.

00;21;21;04 - 00;21;22;10
Speaker 2
What else should it be, though?

00;21;22;10 - 00;21;31;26
Speaker 1
That's a good question. Drop your comments of what you think should be the better marker for where Anne Boleyn and Jane Gray lost their heads Jane Gray.

00;21;31;26 - 00;21;35;01
Speaker 2
Another hyper fixation like poor Jane Green.

00;21;35;19 - 00;21;38;00
Speaker 1
There's so many interesting historical figures.

00;21;38;08 - 00;21;40;02
Speaker 2
So many young.

00;21;40;06 - 00;21;41;27
Speaker 1
Girls, girls, need better stories.

00;21;41;27 - 00;21;42;12
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;21;43;13 - 00;21;51;22
Speaker 1
Um, so if there is another historical figure that you want to work into, another origin story. Yeah. Who would it be?

00;21;52;01 - 00;22;12;00
Speaker 2
That's a good I. I really like Katherine to managing the servant queen, as she is called Margaret. And you can know the fourth wife here, the fourth not not fit to lead whatsoever. So Margaret would read for him pretty much, but she was hated. They hated it. She's foreign, and she just was not like she's known as the bad queen.

00;22;12;28 - 00;22;17;11
Speaker 2
And she knows about queen because, like, she's, she's being badass.

00;22;17;12 - 00;22;18;14
Speaker 3
Like, she's.

00;22;18;25 - 00;22;46;16
Speaker 2
Leading armies and she's ruling when her husband can't and she's doing the one thing that a woman could do in power is to make sure that they have an heir that can lead. And that's like what she can do. Because it's very interesting that she never really seizes the throne and says England is mine now. She's like, I will protect this for my husband and for my son, which is pretty much the main way because like, we're still talking about 1500s women, you know, like they're not fully modern feminists, which is totally fine.

00;22;47;11 - 00;23;03;25
Speaker 2
But the amount of vitriol to her and how much people hated her for really doing what any other woman would have done in her position and actually doing it so much better than any of them could because I feel like the majority of women in that situation would just like stand down because that's how they were taught to do it.

00;23;03;25 - 00;23;15;13
Speaker 2
And she's like, no, I'm not going to I'm going to make sure that we keep the throne and my son gets the throne. And it's what any man would do, though. They hate her for doing what any man would do. And I just find her. I find it fascinating.

00;23;15;22 - 00;23;17;08
Speaker 1
That is a really interesting story.

00;23;17;09 - 00;23;17;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;18;09 - 00;23;24;10
Speaker 1
So without going into spoilers about this ending, emotional damage.

00;23;24;12 - 00;23;25;00
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;23;26;13 - 00;23;41;09
Speaker 1
One of my coworkers was like, I need people to read this so I can talk about it because oh, my God, I need to talk about it. So touch on crafting an ending with we way knowing where you're going later. Yeah. In a in a book to.

00;23;43;00 - 00;23;45;19
Speaker 2
Well, you're assuming I know what happens in book two.

00;23;45;23 - 00;23;58;03
Speaker 1
Yes. Setting it up for a book too, without knowing what's going to be in book two, but also delivering an ending that will destroy people. Yeah, it's a very interesting balance. So how do you approach that?

00;23;58;13 - 00;24;18;21
Speaker 2
I just like to have these like big cathartic endings and I want one especially I wanted to do all of you I have to go into it's going I want them to read the next book. So if I type, if I if I tie everything up all nice and neat, like who wants to read what to nobody? So I like to end on these like really big, powerful notes.

00;24;18;21 - 00;24;38;10
Speaker 2
And we also, like, are talking about books as a transformation machine. So we have I love the beginning who's like literally just like in this wearing her Crimson Globe, which marks as a witch and part of her coven. So uncomfortable. And it's like I remember just this image of her with the buckle, like climbing up her throat and she's just like, oh, my gosh.

00;24;38;10 - 00;25;03;14
Speaker 2
It's like literally choking her. The symbol of her power and her placement to the end where she's not doing that, the opposite of that. And so I really wanted knowing where she came from. I just wanted her just sloughing off everything, rejecting everything that is no longer serving her. And as we like to say, and embracing herself and her power.

00;25;03;24 - 00;25;25;29
Speaker 2
And so I got to a certain scene between certain characters and I was like, oh, this is what happens. And there's just like a rightness that I feel and I'm just like, OK, and that's what it's going to be and it's going to be so cathartic. And they're going to see her do this. And she is just they're just going to be like, yes, this is what it is.

00;25;26;06 - 00;25;36;08
Speaker 1
So you'll just have to read. This is and if you want to talk about it later, there's there's people who want to talk about it. Judging from what you said, book two is still being written.

00;25;36;17 - 00;25;56;17
Speaker 2
Yes. We're having conversations about it. It's it's a tricky one. I thought after the whole debacle of, you know, the struggle of writing books and finally finding Eilis and finding her hard to be like, all right, book two. Turns out she still doesn't want people looking at her. And so it's just been difficult to pin down, to say the least.

00;25;56;17 - 00;26;17;26
Speaker 2
But it is coming I'm not quite sure when yet, but there will be a book, too, and it will be it'll be very clean in terms of without giving too much away. It'll be clear. It'll be clear. The ending will be clear. There is some in previous series, there is some chatter about ambiguity, but this one is clear.

00;26;18;05 - 00;26;32;09
Speaker 1
Separate from the book. Um, online it says that you love to knit. Yes. I also a minute or so writing so what have you learned about creativity through knitting that has helped you as a writer?

00;26;32;14 - 00;26;49;26
Speaker 2
I guess I read I've learned about myself, but I didn't really realize until this moment I like knitting so much because like you have your pattern and you follow your pattern, knit the thing, and I love it. And I love like the repetitive motion and the just again, the pattern following and do the thing, do the steps and you get it.

00;26;49;26 - 00;27;05;02
Speaker 2
And so it's like creative where creativity meets logic and order and it's so nice and it's just very satisfying. There's nothing more satisfying than finding off that last row and like looking at your peers and being like.

00;27;05;14 - 00;27;07;04
Speaker 3
Yeah, I did this my.

00;27;07;19 - 00;27;12;27
Speaker 1
Magic power is to turn string into one. What can you do exactly?

00;27;12;27 - 00;27;25;00
Speaker 2
You love it. But it's interesting that I never felt any urge to like, create my own patterns. And people do. And they, I just, I'm just like, no, I'll be a follower of I'm good on Ravelry and stuck and.

00;27;25;02 - 00;27;44;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't even do patterns I do scarves and blankets because I will just like count off the rows and then just sit in a movie theater and go, yeah, movies think not like it helps me focus more on what I'm watching if my hands are busy. Yeah. So there's always something interesting in like other creative endeavors. Yeah.

00;27;44;26 - 00;27;52;04
Speaker 1
Like if you're a writer or if you're doing one creative thing and like, how you let your mind go with something else. I always find that interesting with people.

00;27;52;09 - 00;28;21;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I like to have I need to get better about having other hobbies like knitting, gardening or whatever it is, because I think it was Lauren Sebastian I know, talked about it but I think she heard it from someone else that when your creative, creative pursuit becomes a job, you lose. Like, it's very very much like the joy out of it because there's a different kind of pressure that comes with that and a different kind of expectation.

00;28;23;03 - 00;28;28;26
Speaker 2
And it's not just I'm sitting on my couch knitting pumpkins anymore, you know.

00;28;29;10 - 00;28;34;22
Speaker 1
100%. Even with like books degree, I'm like, yeah, it's so easy to turn it into a job.

00;28;35;01 - 00;28;36;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. Mm.

00;28;36;08 - 00;28;37;13
Speaker 1
Nope, nope. Not me.

00;28;37;26 - 00;28;46;05
Speaker 2
That's exactly into care. And to be visible, you know, like the is the being visible hard for you sometimes.

00;28;46;08 - 00;29;00;27
Speaker 1
I mean, I was TV, I came, I was in came from news. So I'm more behind the scenes. But occasionally I would go do a story if it was something I cared about. So it's not as much with that. It's just the I have given myself way too much to do at this point.

00;29;00;27 - 00;29;01;06
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;29;01;17 - 00;29;03;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Don't do three jobs. That's fine.

00;29;04;02 - 00;29;06;20
Speaker 2
I mean, I feel like I saw how my day job, so. Yeah.

00;29;06;26 - 00;29;08;24
Speaker 1
How do you balance writing with a day job?

00;29;08;27 - 00;29;27;28
Speaker 2
First of all, I have to I will keep it until like I am the next, you know, however, much until I'm rich, which is never because, like, none of us get rich off this except, you know, the 1%. Um, it is helpful for my mental health because it gives me something else to do that other people need me, and I have to do these things for them.

00;29;28;08 - 00;29;29;27
Speaker 2
I get to do these things for them.

00;29;30;01 - 00;29;30;19
Speaker 3
Sounds like.

00;29;31;09 - 00;29;49;02
Speaker 2
But it forces me out of the manuscript. And, you know, focusing on other people and other times and using different parts of my brain, but also, like, financial stability. Like, it is just so helpful if I relied solely on the writing income I would be so worried about, like, what if I break my leg? What if I need major surgery?

00;29;49;02 - 00;30;09;13
Speaker 2
What if something happens to our house or my car? Or so it would just be really hard and it would put even more pressure on this creative pursuit that is now a job. So it would take a lot for me to leave the day job so in terms of balancing, I just have to be strict about my day job hours, of course.

00;30;09;13 - 00;30;25;26
Speaker 2
And, you know, my day job is done during the job hours. And then outside of that I just always have to make sure I return to the page. But I'm also learning that when I'm sitting down and I'm like, OK, this is not working, today is not a good writing day, I just kind of have to let it not be a good writing day.

00;30;25;26 - 00;30;44;07
Speaker 2
And sometimes that means I pivot over and I think about why it's about writing day and try to solve the problem that is obviously there and sometimes that just means like walking away because there's a lot of self pressure to be like, OK, here I have, I have, you know, this time to write this, you know, a few hours right now and nothing happens.

00;30;44;07 - 00;30;55;28
Speaker 2
Oh, good job. You failed, you know, and so I'm trying to take that off because what? It doesn't do anything. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help the book like it helps no one. So I'm trying to get better about that.

00;30;56;03 - 00;31;00;02
Speaker 1
Well, the last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;31;00;07 - 00;31;13;13
Speaker 2
Yes, I am finally starting we were villains. And so I'm excited about that. And I just Kirsten Waits, Lucy and Dying is coming out soon, and that is Sapphic. Lucy was Western A from Dracula.

00;31;13;25 - 00;31;14;16
Speaker 1
Something like that.

00;31;14;20 - 00;31;35;05
Speaker 2
Um, yeah. Again, I'm sorry, guys. Names are harder, names are hard. And so it's, it's that and it's gorgeous, gorgeous cover. Like, I want to hang it on my wall is so pretty. And then I'm reading Homegrown Magic, and that is Rebecca Prados and her coauthor her that is not coming to my mind right now, but it's cozy fantasy.

00;31;35;16 - 00;31;56;01
Speaker 2
I'd never really read because you've it to before. And I was like, I'm not going to like this. I'm dark. I am spooky. I live in my gothic manor in my mind, like, I'm not going to like this. It's great, it's nice. And it's nice to be like in this fantasy environment, apparently they base it off their daddy group and like their campaigns and their ideas, and that's great.

00;31;56;14 - 00;32;03;27
Speaker 2
And it's just like, Oh, it's magic, but it's low stakes, but like, it still has feel since I'm going to do.

00;32;04;00 - 00;32;27;13
Speaker 1
Something to it. Well, thanks so much for taking time to talk about Crimson. And you have a really thanks to Heather for stopping by Barnes Noble to talk about her book The Crimson Crown. And not only just doing this conversation when we had to do this twice because the mikes weren't plugged in at all. And I don't think I wanted to hear the conversation that was happening next to us.

00;32;27;13 - 00;32;43;01
Speaker 1
It was it was it was interesting. We'll just we'll just say it was interesting. So thanks to Heather for giving up double amounts of her time to talk about her book, The Crimson Crown. If you'd like to check out the Crimson Crown for yourself or any of Heather's other books, the links to do so are in the show notes for you.

00;32;43;03 - 00;32;53;00
Speaker 1
And if you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast. Give us the stories and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.