LiteraryHype Podcast

47. MEGAN BANNEN: Humor and the cozy vibes of home in fantasy

• Stephanie the LiteraryHypewoman / Megan Bannen • Season 1 • Episode 47

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00;00;00;06 - 00;00;09;12
Speaker 1
I'm very excited to talk about the hedgehog. I've hardly, hardly anyone has asked me about the hedgehog. Wow. This is like this is a this is the first in-depth discussion of how we.

00;00;09;12 - 00;00;15;17
Speaker 2
Are going to go hard on this hedgehog, because hedgehog is hilarious.

00;00;16;03 - 00;00;19;13
Speaker 1
You know, I love the hedgehog. You know, it talks about the hedgehog. Oh.

00;00;19;21 - 00;00;21;27
Speaker 2
Well, we will remedy that literally.

00;00;29;12 - 00;00;52;12
Speaker 2
Hi. And welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman and today's author conversation is a fun one because the first time I saw this author was that romance genre con. I had gotten a copy of the book from the publisher but hadn't read it. I just went to this book convention and that one is more kind of like author writer focused.

00;00;52;12 - 00;01;19;04
Speaker 2
So some of these authors were teaching classes, and I went to one of Macon band classes and immediately was like, it's me. In a few years, like, we are the same person she is. She's a real good time. She's a real good time. So I fell in love with her at this convention. And now I have read two of her books, The Undertaking of Heart, Mercy, and her brand new one, The Undermining of Twila and Frank.

00;01;19;14 - 00;01;39;14
Speaker 2
So we're talking about both of these. These are very quirky mash ups of romance and fantasy in ways that you don't normally see in romantically. They're very funny. Did I say quirky? Because they're very quirky, but in like the best way. And I love it so, so much. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Megan Barnard.

00;01;41;28 - 00;01;59;22
Speaker 2
Well, it is so exciting to have you. I literally had read your undertaking of heart and mercy and undermining of Twila and Frank are just absolutely delightful for people who love romance, AC, and are also a little chaotic. So very excited to talk to you about all this.

00;01;59;28 - 00;02;06;25
Speaker 1
That's my Brad's I'm so excited to be here. I'm so glad we made this work. We had to work hard on this. So thank.

00;02;06;26 - 00;02;11;21
Speaker 2
You. Did you know the rough still wants to interrupt things?

00;02;12;13 - 00;02;13;26
Speaker 1
Yes, it does.

00;02;14;00 - 00;02;34;12
Speaker 2
This was supposed to be the in person conversation for those who don't know, but due to the rule, no showing its evil head. We were unable to do it during your book tour. So now the San Diego Comic-Con chaos is over and I can have a functional brain cell again. We're making it happen, and I'm very excited about it because these books are so much fun.

00;02;35;01 - 00;02;42;00
Speaker 2
So for anyone who hasn't already seen them on social media in their bookstores, what's the series about?

00;02;42;04 - 00;03;06;23
Speaker 1
Oh, wow. You know, that's like a really simple question with a really complex answer because you sound like you're just off the chain when you try to describe these books to anybody. And I don't know, accurate. So basically they are like really typical Nora Ephron style romcoms but set in a bonkers fantasy world. And it's not like your kind of fairy tale medieval fantasy world.

00;03;06;23 - 00;03;21;08
Speaker 1
It's more like small town America meets the Old West, but with progressive values and talking animals deliver the mail. That's what you can expect from the series when.

00;03;21;08 - 00;03;35;22
Speaker 2
You were doing the worldbuilding for this, because there are so many different elements. So, so many different elements. How did you decide what pieces of Fantasy World you wanted to pull into this and how you were going to make all of them work together in this universe?

00;03;36;11 - 00;04;08;23
Speaker 1
You know, I would love to say that I was like very deliberate and very, very you were very thoughtful about how I was putting it together. But the truth is, I started writing The Undertaking apart and Mercy, like January 30, first of 20, 20, like just put that in the back of your mind and it start and all of the kind of magical elements were in heart's part of the story, like the part of the world he goes into, like that's where all the fantasy was.

00;04;08;23 - 00;04;31;29
Speaker 1
And Merce's part of the story was more like reality, you know, in it. And as an undertaker in my very first draft of the book, what she was doing was very much like, what an undertaker does in our world, right? And so it wasn't quite as fantasy heavy as it ended up being. And then my agent read it and I love telling the story.

00;04;32;01 - 00;04;55;22
Speaker 1
This is why Holly Root is my ideal agent. It's because she's like, Megan, all the fantasy is with Hart. And I think you need we need more fantasy of Mercy's part of the story, too. And I'm like, whenever you try to say something about the funeral industry and how we don't face our own mortality, she's like, Yeah, man, have you seen the Mandalorian?

00;04;56;12 - 00;05;16;02
Speaker 1
And I said, Yes, I have seen the Mandalorian. And she says, You know, baby Goto's baby stroller. And like, immediately I knew what she meant, right? Like, you know, baby Yoda floats around in that little pod, and she said, you know, that's not actually a baby stroller, but it's that world's version of a baby stroller. And we understand that.

00;05;16;11 - 00;05;39;02
Speaker 1
I said, Yeah. She goes, OK, so you need to baby Yoda's baby stroller. The funeral industry, which made perfect sense to me. So at that point, I really expanded the world, right? So before there was like this kind of big old gods world where Hart went into and he had to kind of take out the undead. And then from there really blew up.

00;05;39;02 - 00;06;13;14
Speaker 1
And it was like, well, wait a minute, like, who are the old gods? Who are the new gods? What do people believe? This is a book about death and what happens when you die. So what do people believe about what happens when you die? And how are the funeral rites related to people's belief about death? And if you're going to have people's belief about death, you really kind of need to form the whole religion and the way that religion is kind of the backbone of that society, you know, very much like if you go into a small town, you know, religion kind of permeates a lot of life there.

00;06;13;28 - 00;06;40;27
Speaker 1
And I kind of wanted the same feel, but with a totally different kind of mythology. So and I, I think the trick to making it all make sense together is just that for the characters, none of this is extraordinary. Right? Yeah. Dead. Oh, man. It's like, you know, it's kind of like every spring where you get ants by your kitchen sink and you're like, Oh, you know, that's more the attitude people have towards zombies in this world, you know?

00;06;40;27 - 00;07;08;18
Speaker 1
It's like a natural part of life. Oh, man. The undead again, you know, and animals delivering the mail like, oh, yeah, it's like Steve, my postman, right? It's just part of the world. And what people believe about gods and and mythology and heroes and things like that, it's just. Yeah, and I had a hamburger for lunch. I mean, it's just I think as long as your characters are kind of blasé about it, you could sell almost anything.

00;07;08;18 - 00;07;20;16
Speaker 2
That's really interesting to think about. And like, when you put that in context of, like, other books of if there and this is normal, then it doesn't register to you is it's too weird so I like that point. Thank you.

00;07;20;19 - 00;07;38;16
Speaker 1
I kind of got that from like, oh man. Like, 25 years ago, I went to see Jasper Ford speak, you know, the guy who wrote The Bear and the well of lost plots all the Thursday nights books and those are like bonkers. If you like the stuff I write, you will probably like Jasper Ford's books. But he was talking about that.

00;07;38;16 - 00;07;56;08
Speaker 1
Like the trick to pulling this sort of thing off is just, you know, my dad is a time traveler. So once, you know, I can enter a book big deal. I mean that it's just it's not a big deal to the reader or to the characters. It becomes something that's easier to swallow for the reader.

00;07;56;08 - 00;08;15;13
Speaker 2
I think I like it. And so with Twila and Frank, things have changed since Heart and Mercy and the undead, the zombies aren't really an issue anymore. What was your thought process like as you were deciding to get rid of the zombies and go a different direction with this crazy world?

00;08;15;22 - 00;08;42;00
Speaker 1
Well, so first of all, the undertaking of Heart and Mercy was written as a standalone, right? And as it was writing it while hiding from my children in the basements during a global pandemic, you know, I was just having a good time with it and having fun, and I write a book like that thinking This is what the people want.

00;08;42;00 - 00;09;06;09
Speaker 1
This is going to be a bestseller. So many people want to read about the dead and talking animals, delivering mail in a weird Wild West fantasy world. Yes. Like you don't write that book and think, I'm definitely going to sell this. Right. I figured my best shot was that there would be one editor out there just weird enough to go, Yeah, OK, which is what happened you know?

00;09;06;29 - 00;09;28;09
Speaker 1
But even as I wrote that book and I knew it was just kind of one piece stand alone book in the back of my mind, I thought on the off chance I find that one weird editor. Thank you, Angelina. And on the off chance that this book actually manages to do well enough to merit more books in this world, I could see myself writing more books in as well.

00;09;28;11 - 00;09;54;21
Speaker 1
Right. And with that in mind, I, I planted, I planted two more books into heart and mercy based not on so much what would happen in the books, but on the couples I wanted to see in those books and specifically for Twila and Frank, I just really wanted to see middle aged people falling in love because there's a lot of young people that fall in love and romance and fantasy in general.

00;09;55;05 - 00;10;15;17
Speaker 1
You don't often see like a story that centers a middle aged mom flying to the rescue on a dragon like that's just not something you're going to see very often. And I wanted to see that, you know, I wanted to see like middle aged mom is hero. And so I knew that that in the back of my mind, but I can't.

00;10;15;17 - 00;10;44;07
Speaker 1
Mercy was self-contained. If there was ever going to be another book, that would have been fine. Right. But I did solve the problem in that book, which meant I had to cough up another problem. And as I was writing Mercy, there was just a throwaway line, like early on when heart is training His Apprentice and Zucker's and and Hart's like, first a line about so many people don't know what the hell this place is about.

00;10;44;10 - 00;11;13;27
Speaker 1
There are people who still think there are dragons flying around here. And Dekkers was like, Oh, there aren't. Yeah, he's a guy to do that. And it was just like a throwaway line, right? And then I started to think, well, to be funny, like, what if there actually are dragons in this book? And so I threw in, like, two more dragon jokes into Heart and Mercy Look again before the book ever sold before, you know, just just so it's like, all right, all I know is middle aged couple and dragons.

00;11;14;00 - 00;11;35;18
Speaker 1
So if I get to write another book, I love a middle aged couple and dragons, and that's kind of the it was mostly just me, like writing in a backup plan just in case and to heart mercy. But then when I when my publisher was like, yes, no, we would like another book, then I actually had to make that reality, which was a little more challenging.

00;11;36;00 - 00;11;40;29
Speaker 1
I thought it was like my half assed thought process.

00;11;42;09 - 00;11;51;08
Speaker 2
What were some of the challenges of creating the Dragon side of this story? I mean, I really enjoyed that the Dragons kill people by vomiting glitter on them.

00;11;51;16 - 00;12;01;12
Speaker 1
And they don't. And that's because they don't actually kill people like they vomit glitter, but like that got me. I don't get spoilery, but the guy who dies does not die by glitter.

00;12;01;23 - 00;12;04;00
Speaker 2
I was going with the early implications.

00;12;04;23 - 00;12;27;23
Speaker 1
Sorry. Sorry. OK, all right. Dying by glitter yeah. I think that they spent that they, you know, they spit glitter instead of fire. And early on, you know, it was kind of gone with standard dragons, that spitfire, because I'm like, well, wait a minute, like, there's all just the implications of it. Like, if you've got dragons flying around spitting fire, like, we got to we got to evacuate Tanorria you know what I mean?

00;12;27;23 - 00;12;47;29
Speaker 1
Like, you can't there's no way they're going to keep people in there if that's what the dangerous things are like. Well, it's winter and it doesn't seem to be hurting anything and they're not attacking. Like, it was kind of like I had to make the dragons, like, not your typical dragons. Right. And I did all of this, by the way, while I had the one and only time I've had covered.

00;12;48;27 - 00;13;14;15
Speaker 1
So and I just come off a cold like, listen, I was sick the entire time I wrote this book, like the diet time I wrote this book. So I had in January of that year, my oldest son gave me a really bad cold that lasted forever and fine. It's awkward. You know, you can still kind of limp along writing and then my husband got up from the dinner table one night, as, you know, two weeks into this cold.

00;13;14;22 - 00;13;32;14
Speaker 1
So my husband got up from the table and said, well, you fuckers gave me your fucking cold because he's he is that guy. And I'm like, oh, sorry. And then the next morning, he woke up and he had a fever and he was messed up. And I'm like, well, we don't have that. Whatever that is, you should not.

00;13;32;14 - 00;13;47;24
Speaker 1
And he's a teacher. So I'm like, do not go to school because I'm giving a test. I'm like, That is such a bad idea. You should not go. So he goes to school. The nurse looks at him is like, Let's give you a cold. It does look like you walk in the door. Yeah. Because it does. And he had covered, so he came home.

00;13;48;01 - 00;14;16;24
Speaker 1
And so then I'm like single parenting for a few days and I'm just getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And I keep testing and it's negative, negative and day five, I had COVID, so then for like two weeks and then and then I got bronchitis from my youngest. Anyway, the glitter part so I got to the Dragons during COVID and I mean, I'm like, I'm sitting there with like a desk in my bed just, you know, like oh, this just looks better.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;41;06
Speaker 1
And I'm like, I don't know, I can't breathe on fire. So, like, all refunding glitter, glitter. It's funny, this, glitter, this. And I was like literally a cold fever dream. It was what this is. And so that's kind of how that developed. And I don't know in a circus, but like I so I had this challenge of I can't make them, like, so dangerous that you'd have to evacuate Cambria.

00;14;41;07 - 00;15;15;18
Speaker 1
Like, I've got to make them like concerning enough to investigate and figure out what's going on, but not so concerning that, you know, we all got to get out of here. And also, like, I don't know, I don't want to kill anybody. I don't want to kill anybody in this book. So so I think that plus kind of having some of the logic center of my brain shoved aside during my COVID feverish state, I, I think that just kind of ended up with these kind of cute, nice dragons that are pink.

00;15;15;26 - 00;15;29;17
Speaker 2
And latch on like little babies that just need attention. This acute is so fun. I was giggling nonstop because of the dragons and other things. There are a lot of things to giggle about this.

00;15;29;17 - 00;15;44;06
Speaker 1
This one is, I have to admit, I, like, entertain myself and every day I would write and think, oh, I don't know. I don't know how that I don't know how it's going. And the next day I would read what I read the day before and there was always one joke every day where I'm like, that's pretty funny.

00;15;44;16 - 00;15;50;14
Speaker 2
You even got that. That's what she said joke in there, which was funny enough to me to make me write.

00;15;51;18 - 00;16;00;02
Speaker 1
Well, you know, there's a there's that. That's what she said. Joke at heart. Mercy. So I was like, Oh, maybe I'll just have one. That's what she said. Joke or that's a joke in every book.

00;16;00;18 - 00;16;03;24
Speaker 2
How did you carry that into this fantasy world? Those two? Well, yeah.

00;16;04;06 - 00;16;27;12
Speaker 1
And the joke is actually no, that's what she said. Like, I'm not making a threat. That's literally what came out of her mouth, you know? Oh, that's like that happens in both books. So I thought, you know, I don't know if I have one. And Rosie and Adam. Oh, multiple stab at it. And it's oh, no, I just did not end well because it wasn't done.

00;16;27;12 - 00;16;29;23
Speaker 2
I promise. It needs one more joke sometimes.

00;16;29;23 - 00;16;31;27
Speaker 1
Yes, there's there's time. Don't worry. There son.

00;16;32;07 - 00;16;40;23
Speaker 2
Do you have a secret way, a method of crafting the jokes, or is it just like, know what? This is funny to me, and I hope other people like it.

00;16;41;11 - 00;17;13;16
Speaker 1
I think, like, my entire 12 year old boy has never left. You know, I like I just can't if there's a if I see an opportunity, I just can't leave it alone. It's like it's just low hanging fruit. It's like, well, like, it's a lot joke. Like, it just. It just bleeds into that. And I don't know, like, I'm going to be on a panel at romance con talking about comedy, writing, comedy, and I don't know what I'm going to say because I just it's just like my natural state of being, you know, like so I don't know how to tell someone how to do it, you know what I mean?

00;17;13;16 - 00;17;39;15
Speaker 1
Or they even do it consciously. It's just that I appreciate a good joke. And especially in fantasy, like, God so often in fantasy, everything's so damn serious all the time and it's all life and death. I was like, God, someone tell a joke, someone tell a joke. There's a really was this a spoilery? There's a moment in the next book where things are really intense and someone says like, someone tell a joke.

00;17;39;22 - 00;17;50;23
Speaker 1
And like, the least likely person present is the one that just pops up the deadpan joke. And then I'm like, just stunned. I mean, it's like one of my favorite moments of the book, you know?

00;17;51;07 - 00;17;52;25
Speaker 2
Oh, I cannot wait to check that out.

00;17;53;03 - 00;18;19;03
Speaker 1
I mean, we'll see if it makes it all the way through. But for me, like, humor is what really kind of anchors the books and makes them really humane and relatable, you know what I mean? Like, these are not great heroes, right? These are not gods or kings or assassins or whatever. These are just people like us. They're just average, everyday people just trying to get through the day.

00;18;19;12 - 00;18;37;03
Speaker 1
And I think I think humor helps with that. It makes them a little more real and also kind of makes the more serious parts land better, too. You know, the contrast between joking around and having humor and also dealing with things that are more serious and difficult.

00;18;37;11 - 00;18;51;06
Speaker 2
I mean, that's true to real life anyway. Like sometimes when you're in a really dark situation, the best way to cope with it is to crack an inappropriate joke. Look at my funeral. My sisters and I, we're cracking so many jokes.

00;18;51;18 - 00;19;22;29
Speaker 1
Listen, I mean, funerals are can be oddly joyous. And I think I mean, that's something we even get at. Like Mercy, that that death is not 100% sad, you know, it kind of valuing the life well lived and living that you kind of have to accept death is a part of living a good life. And yeah, mean I, I hate to say it but I had some good times at funerals or a memorial services where you're remembering somebody you know and all the joy of that life.

00;19;23;01 - 00;19;34;04
Speaker 2
And you start this book with a real fun line, which we do get the story behind this first line later on in the book. So which came first, the starting line or the actual story?

00;19;34;27 - 00;19;59;03
Speaker 1
The starting line. And like I knew here's what's funny, though. That was not the original exact original first line. The original first line was Tyler Bankers Unlikely Careers of Henry and Marshall began with a Tater Tots capsule, which is to say it began with Frank Ellis. And I always knew that that was that was like the first thing I knew about this book was that Twyla Banneker was making a casserole.

00;19;59;12 - 00;20;20;24
Speaker 1
Like, If you want something that says middle aged Midwestern woman, that's a casserole. Like, we know how to cook food and bring it in a time of need. OK, that's what we do. And like, there's nothing more Midwestern than a tater tots casserole. OK, so I mean, it made perfect, delicious I mean, obviously not like tater tots in and of themselves.

00;20;22;03 - 00;20;43;27
Speaker 1
No, but then you put them in a casserole magic well, it turns out that Tater Tots is its trademark. And so I had to make this decision like because so it would have to be capitalized because it's a it's actually a brand. Right. And I just thought, like tater tots or any little potato nuggets like that. But it's like Kleenex, right?

00;20;44;05 - 00;21;02;19
Speaker 1
Kleenex is a brand. And we use it ubiquitously. Or like Band-Aids, right? I mean, a particular thing, whether it's that brand or not. And it turns out that is also true of tater tots. So I would have to capitalize it, which are kind of like for me, anchor it in this world. Now, it's not a generic little potato nugget.

00;21;03;03 - 00;21;24;07
Speaker 1
Now it is a brand that and just by capitalizing it to me, made it translate to something in our world. And I know I don't it just it didn't sit right with me. And so then I get on my group text with my critique partners. I'm like, all right, give me some more Midwestern casseroles. What am I making?

00;21;24;07 - 00;21;46;08
Speaker 1
I just was blanking I was at World Fantasy Con when these notes came through, and I like spent an hour agonizing over tater tots. And then finally it was my friend Miranda Acevedo, who's a wonderful author, who's was like, my mom always made tuna casserole, like, oh, yeah. Oh, that casserole. You're so right. Perfect. So that's how it ended up being tuna casserole.

00;21;46;08 - 00;22;06;11
Speaker 1
But the line the line came first, right? And then I'm like, and then later, as I'm kind of back filling the back story for Twila and Frank it's like, Oh, obviously, she brought home a casserole. The time of need like that is, again, it's not only just building on their friendship, but also kind of building on the kind of person she is.

00;22;06;11 - 00;22;16;08
Speaker 1
I want her very identifiable as a Midwestern woman of a certain age. So that was a really long answer to a simple question.

00;22;16;27 - 00;22;37;09
Speaker 2
No, I love getting the background and hearing the thought processes and stories because so often a lot of people come into the bookstore thinking the books are just like pop. I'm out super easy. And the thought process that goes into a single tiny detail can be some of the most entertaining information that you can find.

00;22;37;26 - 00;22;43;12
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, you want to talk about heavy penile bulges for a minute.

00;22;47;00 - 00;23;10;22
Speaker 1
Why you this is this is one of my favorite things. You know, it asks me about this, right? I'm writing this book with dragons and at some point I have to figure out, like, how do you know if, like, what procreative parts a dragon has right? And I'm like, I don't I don't know. And so I am also a librarian.

00;23;10;22 - 00;23;36;00
Speaker 1
So I kind of put on my library hat and I get down to business trying to find out how you sex a reptile. And pretty quickly, I came up with this term heavy penal bulges and I'm like, all right. So then I get into the library's databases and I get on to Academic Search Premiere, which is part of the Ebsco host suite because I'm a librarian and I just because I wanted to make sure this is real, this is not some junk on the Internet.

00;23;36;00 - 00;24;05;16
Speaker 1
Right. And I found several academic peer reviews mentioning how many people penal. So I'm like, OK, I am satisfied this is scientifically accurate. And so I have that in the book. But then I get the copy edits back and my copy editor has changed every instance of me, penal code. To me, penile bolt bulges and I'm like and like I'm not one of those people that gets snarky with copy edits because these are the people that save me from public humiliation.

00;24;06;17 - 00;24;28;20
Speaker 1
So normally, like, thank you so much. Oh my God. But this time I got a little my hackles went up because now my librarian self has been mildly offended. It's like, excuse me, I have done my research and I'm changing them all back when I have this. But then I stop myself and I'm like, Wait a minute, this person probably didn't change us from nothing less.

00;24;28;20 - 00;24;50;05
Speaker 1
Probably did not person did not assume I was wrong. Probably this person probably looked it up. So then I googled penile bulges and I started seeing results for that. So then I get on Academic Search premiere and I type in heavy penile bulges and I get results for that from peer reviewed journals. So now I break out the big guns and I emailed some herpetologist at the University of Kansas.

00;24;50;11 - 00;25;14;04
Speaker 1
Like, Can you read this email? I'm like, How do I? I know I am a fiction writer with dragons in my book. How did you a reptile like it? Which term would you say is accurate? Like you are experts? Should I be calling these? How many people boulders or heavy penile bulges and what's great is like they got into it.

00;25;14;04 - 00;25;37;01
Speaker 1
They're like, well, like I got out. What was it really short? I got up my books and I'm seeing instances of each and they're like, You know what? You could go either way. Either way. And so I actually went with a copy editors temporal bulges because the jokes are funnier that way. They're funnier jokes with me, penile. But that's the kind of detail that, you know, you just read through.

00;25;37;05 - 00;25;46;05
Speaker 1
I mean, you know, Will does and you don't think this author's fed a ludicrous amount of her life trying to find out the correct terminology?

00;25;46;10 - 00;25;48;07
Speaker 2
I would not have done. I didn't.

00;25;48;09 - 00;25;55;22
Speaker 1
Know. And there are by the way, those those herpetologists are acknowledged in the acknowledgments. It's one of the better parts of the acknowledgments you want to look at that.

00;25;55;25 - 00;26;05;10
Speaker 2
I don't think I had that at it. So now we're going to go to get a final copy because I do usually read the acknowledgments. I'm a weirdo. Like.

00;26;06;02 - 00;26;20;09
Speaker 1
No, you know, listen, I love writing acknowledgments. If I can make them a little entertaining to sometimes I've done some of them are just really short to the point. And I don't know, I'm starting to get more entertaining with them. The ones the Twila and Frank acknowledgments are really good, if you ask me.

00;26;20;12 - 00;26;28;25
Speaker 2
Oh, I'm definitely going. I need to go check these out. But since we're on this kick of the animals, the creatures in the story, we got to talk about this hedgehog.

00;26;29;17 - 00;26;33;18
Speaker 1
Yes. Thank you. No, one talks about the hedgehog.

00;26;34;18 - 00;26;42;08
Speaker 2
The hedgehog is so friggin funny. So for those who haven't read the book yet, introduce us to the male carrying hedgehog.

00;26;42;14 - 00;27;02;25
Speaker 1
So I should preface this by saying there are two very important male caring animals in the first book and the other taking apart and mercy. But at the end of that book, they end up going to work for Mercy Birdsall at her undertaking business. So now there's like an opening, right? So we need a new name killer. That's what they're called in this book to deliver male inside of.

00;27;03;07 - 00;27;04;19
Speaker 2
A butcher that you know.

00;27;04;19 - 00;27;27;17
Speaker 1
It's fine, you know, no judgment. No judgment. I'm the one to cough up onwards. So this one, I decided to make her a hedgehog because my mom, I dedicated this book to my parents, and my mom loves hedgehogs. She, like, collects hedgehogs who's got hedgehogs from pepper shakers, hedgehog, Christmas ornaments, hedgehog, cheeto woman has a lot of hedgehogs.

00;27;27;18 - 00;27;56;25
Speaker 1
I'm like, all right, this is this is a little something for Mary Kay. In the book, they decided and also hedgehogs are cute. So I decided to make her a hedgehog. And unlike in the previous book, there was a mail delivery rabbit that was like a whiskey swilling, foulmouthed crass jerk. And I loved him. And there was also this kind of like more prim and proper Moira Rose by way of Dowager Lady Granville Owl that delivered mail.

00;27;57;06 - 00;28;24;10
Speaker 1
So I, you know, I'm like, OK, what kind of personality does this one have? And I just decided to make her, like, super cute and super meek. And so, like, every time she enters, it's like she can't even say hello without making it sound like a question, right? That's like, how long now? You know, every time she comes along, which is a very high boy, and she's totally incompetent, she ends up with like mail stuck to her spines.

00;28;24;26 - 00;28;41;15
Speaker 1
And, you know, so it's just really fun to make her as cute and pathetic as possible, which is a terrible job. But she's walking around with like little rubber rain boots and instead dumped you in glasses, glasses I had a lot of fun with her.

00;28;42;01 - 00;28;57;09
Speaker 2
I love the interactions between the hedgehog delivering the mail to Frank and Twyla because Frank has a very different perspective on how to handle this the toilet. So just their interactions with the three of them, she's like, Tick her.

00;28;58;24 - 00;29;08;17
Speaker 1
Which just, just to check your mail and then kill them, right? But like Twyla enables, she just does, you know? And Frank said, Oh, that's so great.

00;29;08;21 - 00;29;27;25
Speaker 2
So you talked about Hedgehog being for your mom. I notice some things and some of the names that I don't know that a lot of people who did not grow up outside of Kansas would pick up on PETA and Omaha and Mexico. So talk a little bit about your inspiration for names that are clearly Kansas City.

00;29;28;15 - 00;29;30;16
Speaker 1
I love that. You know, this.

00;29;31;00 - 00;29;35;11
Speaker 2
I always so many times as a kid like real cheese.

00;29;36;23 - 00;29;43;11
Speaker 1
My dad told side of the family is from Alma. That's that's why, oh my gosh, my grandparents are buried at MoMA.

00;29;43;15 - 00;29;47;13
Speaker 2
So I lived in the Topeka area and I went to K-State. So we would go through there all the time.

00;29;48;23 - 00;30;11;10
Speaker 1
Stuff like my grandparents lived in Topeka the whole time I grew up, so I always went to visit them in Topeka. That is not so. So this is extra delightful. I love this Kansas connection. Yeah. So originally, you know, like, I've got I'm trying to figure out a place names in this book. And, you know, originally I was thinking kind of like Greco-Roman mythology.

00;30;11;13 - 00;30;32;17
Speaker 1
There's kind of some, some, some of that hanging out, like the mythology of this notion of the pantheon of gods and all that stuff. But then I'm like, well, no, this I wanted to feel like I wanted to feel like small town Kansas, and I wanted to feel like the old West. And I wanted I wanted this to be a very distinctly American fantasy setting, you know, or that kind of vibe.

00;30;33;08 - 00;30;54;11
Speaker 1
I'm like, whoa. There are place names throughout the state where I live. And I specifically, for the most part, I pick names of Ghost Tales or near Ghost Towns of Kansas. But in some cases, there are places that I have a specific connection to. It's like I need a character, Alma, because, you know, I've got family in that area.

00;30;54;24 - 00;31;16;22
Speaker 1
The whole island that the book is set on is called Bouchon, which is where my grandmother came from. My grandfather was Ramada. My dad grew up in Harrington another one of my other grandfather grew up in Kundera in Argentina, which is a neighborhood of Kansas City, Kansas. So like there's just all these little so many of the names in the book.

00;31;16;22 - 00;31;22;06
Speaker 1
It was place names and business names are come from small towns in Kansas.

00;31;22;20 - 00;31;24;00
Speaker 2
It made me so happy.

00;31;24;06 - 00;31;25;14
Speaker 1
I was so to Whited.

00;31;25;16 - 00;31;28;01
Speaker 2
I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

00;31;29;23 - 00;31;36;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. All of the islands are named after either small towns or ghost towns of Kansas.

00;31;36;10 - 00;31;38;14
Speaker 2
Here for Midwest represented.

00;31;38;25 - 00;31;39;17
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;31;41;12 - 00;31;54;10
Speaker 2
So clearly these books are very fun, very quirky. How do you manage balancing and like approach balancing the the work in the fun with the tension and the plot?

00;31;54;25 - 00;32;20;28
Speaker 1
I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, you know, I know some people are really, you know, like they're they're very insightful. They're writing their own books. And I think for me, I kind of I kind of operate on instinct and vibe. And I think I pull a lot from my theater background. Of kind of like a character motivation and one thing organically leading to the next.

00;32;21;07 - 00;32;54;29
Speaker 1
That's not to say that I don't know what's going to happen in the book. Because I always know the general idea of what's going to happen. But connecting those general ideas is kind of the challenging part. And it happens pretty organically. I guess one thing I do that I think is really helpful in this regard is and I've I've done this for the past four books I've written, and it seems to be my process, which is I, I will rewrite the first act of the book like six, seven, eight times until I'm sure I've got it right before I keep going.

00;32;55;00 - 00;33;13;10
Speaker 1
Because I think when you run into problems further down the road, it's almost always something in the setup. Like you didn't get it set up right to begin with, in which case you have to go all the way back to Act one to fix it. And so what I have learned is get act one right or as close to right as you can get it.

00;33;13;10 - 00;33;36;15
Speaker 1
And the rest of the draft is going to just naturally fall into place the way it's supposed to and I don't as far as like balancing the humor with kind of the more serious elements of plot, I don't know. I guess it's just this is life, you know, and sometimes you get through the tears with the laughter, I guess.

00;33;36;24 - 00;33;47;24
Speaker 2
So there might be some tears in this in the happier sense as you get to see Hart and Mercy's wedding. So what was it like for you to create this window into their happily ever after?

00;33;47;27 - 00;34;08;04
Speaker 1
That was so much fun. And it was, you know, I just remember the moment when I realized that was something I could do and that it made sense to me. It made sense to include it in the book because this is a 12 and Frank is a book about marriage and motherhood. Right. And it really so much of Heart and Mercy was about kind of the funeral industry.

00;34;08;04 - 00;34;24;09
Speaker 1
And I'm like, this actually makes so much sense to have a wedding in this book and to see what that part of the kind of mythology looks like. And who better to get married than heart mercy, you know? And so I just remember emailing my editor going I've got a great idea. This is what I'm putting in the book.

00;34;24;09 - 00;34;45;29
Speaker 1
And she she was so excited. I thought it makes total sense. So it's really fun to write this wedding because first of all, there is some joy in providing a little bit of fan service to the readers who followed me to the second book. Like, that was fun and it was fun to to be able to show people they are still happy and doing well and that they're good for each other.

00;34;46;13 - 00;35;14;15
Speaker 1
And then just that just getting to write a wedding ceremony was so great and to really think about what should people promise themselves. Like, I know what our wedding ceremonies typically look like in our world, but, you know, people can get very creative with them. But when I think about like really traditional wedding vows and what we promised each other when we get married now that I've been married for 21 years and happily, you know, like I did not marry Doug Banneker.

00;35;14;15 - 00;35;32;13
Speaker 1
Thank you. Which is great. That will make sense. If you read the book I it just but it really has got me to thinking about the sorts of things we should promise each other for the long haul. And those were the vows that I wrote and that was fun. That was a really good time.

00;35;32;21 - 00;35;35;18
Speaker 2
And it's super cool all about what I do.

00;35;35;28 - 00;35;38;29
Speaker 1
So the jokes really got me through on this one, I think.

00;35;39;25 - 00;35;52;08
Speaker 2
And you touched on the Twila and Frank are older characters and we normally see in romance novels. So talk about the challenges and freedoms that come with creating a romance for middle aged adults.

00;35;52;16 - 00;36;19;13
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, I don't know if you could tell, but like I'm a woman of a certain age and I don't you know, for me it was just kind of like I I guess I just wanted to see myself in a romance novel. I mean, and also I wanted to touch on the things that you find romantic in your fifties are really different from the things you find romantic in your twenties or even thirties like you didn't.

00;36;19;14 - 00;36;42;29
Speaker 1
Your priorities change. What matters, changes you know, like, God, my husband installed a light fixture under my kitchen cabinets. And I mean, that's just the most romantic damn thing a person could do for me at this point. You know, like things change and and you also, I think when you get into your fifties, you really have a much better sense about what's important, what you can let go.

00;36;43;18 - 00;37;18;18
Speaker 1
You know, like, Twila is a big proponent of comfortable underwear and a certain amount of practicality and and being be comfortable in her own shoes, right? Like you don't always have to look amazing every day. You actually look OK how you are. And I don't know. So it was a little bit about the struggles of aging with grace, but also prioritizing you know, what love is at age 50 and what what matters at that point, I think give a better perspective of what matters.

00;37;18;22 - 00;37;32;25
Speaker 2
The cover of Curtain Mercy has little zombie hands on the hearts. The cover for Twila and Frank has the Dragons So what little detail should we be looking for on the Adam and Rosey cover?

00;37;33;01 - 00;37;36;21
Speaker 1
That one has a heart made out of a tree.

00;37;39;06 - 00;37;39;18
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;37;40;01 - 00;37;42;19
Speaker 2
Can you say anything about Adam?

00;37;42;19 - 00;38;08;29
Speaker 1
No, actually, I can't because it has been announced and it's like there's even like a little plot blurb on my Good Reads and Amazon and stuff, so it's available for preorder for most places. So I could talk a little bit about this one, trying to think what we include in the plot description. So it doesn't say that he's in the book, in the plot description, but my through line throughout the series is Penrose Zucker's.

00;38;08;29 - 00;38;32;05
Speaker 1
He is always the partner of the main character. So he's he's like the most important secondary character throughout the book. And in this case, he is partners with Rosie Fox, who is not just a marshal, but like Art. She's a demigod but unlike Kurt, she is a mortal. So she cannot die. And she is now 157 years old.

00;38;33;10 - 00;38;59;09
Speaker 1
And the feeling she's starting to feel kind of stuck like this, you know, life just goes on and on and on. And she's been alive a long enough now to just to have watched everyone she's ever known and loved eventually die. And she continues to build good relationships with people. But she looks at everybody now knowing I'm going out with this person and this person and this person, and it's really going to hurt when this person dies.

00;38;59;16 - 00;39;26;12
Speaker 1
Like that's kind of where she's at at this point in her life. And it takes place quite some time after Twila and Frank, like it's ten years later. So we get 31 year old Penrose backers of Eve. And the basic gist is the portal. The portal breaks down to get into Tanorria and they have to call in the guy who invented the portal, whose name is Adam Lee, and he is only mentioned in the first two books.

00;39;27;02 - 00;39;54;04
Speaker 1
This is the first time we actually get to see him and he and Rosie are very much opposites. She's like 65. She's basically like a route into cowgirl. She's like Jesse from the Toy Story movies you know? And he is this very subdued, contained, very petite man in bespoke menswear. So it's very much an opposites attract book, which I love.

00;39;54;04 - 00;40;21;26
Speaker 1
And I've always wanted to write a story about a love interest who is not 63 and love like I really wanted a smaller man with a more petite frame to get to be the romantic hero and a really tall girl. Like, I'm 510 rose is really tall. So that's another one from a tall rose. And the basic gist of the book, and I can say this, is that they get trapped inside D'Andrea and they can't get out.

00;40;22;07 - 00;40;23;14
Speaker 2
Shenanigans.

00;40;23;21 - 00;40;32;24
Speaker 1
Shenanigans, indeed. This one is, of all the books, leans really heavily into the fantasy. So if you want to explore the world more, you're going to get it with this book.

00;40;32;29 - 00;40;40;09
Speaker 2
So since Penrose Decker is the through line, is he going to get an AK? Are we going to get any more books in this series?

00;40;42;04 - 00;41;05;13
Speaker 1
I cannot. I can't. I'm not intending to write more books in the series, or at least not in this part of the world, but as for Penrose Dunkers and any possible E.T.A., I will leave you with this that there are four people trapped inside Tanorria Rosy Adam Tucker's, and I will leave you to guess who the fourth person is.

00;41;06;10 - 00;41;25;00
Speaker 2
Oh, Kibaki wasn't referred to so something that a lot of people might not know about you because you did touch on your library experience, but you didn't mention the part of who you've worked with at the library. And that is serious because the first time I was here, like, it used to be her boss.

00;41;26;12 - 00;41;35;02
Speaker 1
So sort of like I was like I was sort of in charge of the building where she works. So she didn't directly report to me, but I was her sort of boss. I did her schedule.

00;41;35;08 - 00;41;37;21
Speaker 2
So what's it like now? What was in the water?

00;41;37;21 - 00;41;59;05
Speaker 1
I've known her since before she was 07. And so like, it's it's almost it's almost weird to say Sierra zero because it's like, oh, yeah, there's so little that I've known for a long time and like she was super fun to work with and we, we, we've been in the same kind of, kind of group of writers for a really long time.

00;41;59;09 - 00;42;25;27
Speaker 1
So, you know, she's just, she's a friend. And when I, when I had to write my, my first sexy time scene for Heart and Mercy, and I knew I wanted to include something like, I'm not it's not terribly spicy, but it's a little spicy, you know? And I was trying to say I'm trying to figure out how to write it and also with like the knowledge in the back of my mind that my mom was going to read the book, you know, and I'm like trying to write this thing, but I can't use that word.

00;42;26;13 - 00;42;44;03
Speaker 1
I can't use that word either. You know, it's just like I it was a mess. So I finally just shove the computer aside. And I picked up my phone and I, I opened up a text message to Sierra Simone and I'm like, I am 200 words into this sex scene. And I use the facades 12 times already. How do you do this?

00;42;44;08 - 00;43;05;23
Speaker 1
And I just see dots for like 5 minutes, dots, you know, and then this, like, novel come through. You just give me all this advice. It's just like I have allosaurus my own personal disaster. I'll be happy to share it with you. What a gem. What a gem. The only advice I remember from that was never let them be happy with you.

00;43;05;24 - 00;43;07;23
Speaker 2
The most sierra thing to say.

00;43;08;25 - 00;43;28;25
Speaker 1
I just love her so much. She's just like she's so smart. Like men you have a conversation with Sierra somewhere, and you're like, I will. I will never be as smart as a human being. This is like she is so smart. It's so damn funny. And just so down to earth and awesome. I love her.

00;43;29;05 - 00;43;31;09
Speaker 2
A DB called her galaxy brain.

00;43;31;15 - 00;43;33;04
Speaker 1
So Dave.

00;43;33;15 - 00;43;39;05
Speaker 2
What's the writing community like for you in Kansas City and your perspective on this amazing group of writers?

00;43;39;08 - 00;44;00;11
Speaker 1
It's fantastic. Like, we're so lucky, you know, for a town the size of Kansas City. And I include also Lawrence, Kansas, in that mix, right? I mean, yeah, my son is already going to be going to catch you next fall very exciting. I mean, if it makes you feel better. I went to Emporia State as an undergraduate, so there we go.

00;44;01;23 - 00;44;21;29
Speaker 1
But like especially like Natalie C Parker is she's the one that's really worked hard to create this group, bring us all together. She's a wonderful writer and she's got a book coming out next week called Come Out. Come Out the way I Bought It. It's fantastic. It's so important. And I just I love what she's doing with that book anyway.

00;44;22;12 - 00;44;43;27
Speaker 1
She's got a really great job of kind of finding all of us and bringing us all together. And we meet regularly and it's just such a great friend, group and resource and that, you know, because it's a very particular business and it's nice to have people to go to with questions or to commiserate and then to be there for others when they might need advice or help.

00;44;43;28 - 00;45;16;05
Speaker 1
It's just great. So it's like, you know, Natalie Parker, Tessa Gratton, I do from 07. Julie Murphy just moved here, so we again, Julie Murphy, Sarah Henning, Becca Coffin, Dapper Ella Mackenzie, Natasha Hanover Hutchinson and Amanda's in AA. I mean, there's just all these people that live here, like within like, you know, 45 minute drive of each other and it's just, it's, it's so it's invaluable.

00;45;16;06 - 00;45;22;07
Speaker 1
Like I constantly am asking people for advice or their thoughts on something, and it's just been great.

00;45;22;17 - 00;45;34;11
Speaker 2
It is. I love talking to all of the Kansas City area authors because they're so much fun and I feel like I've featured a good half of Dallas so far. So wonderful.

00;45;34;15 - 00;45;36;01
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you.

00;45;36;23 - 00;45;40;04
Speaker 2
My city. Yeah, I live there right now, but it's still.

00;45;40;26 - 00;45;42;01
Speaker 1
In your heart. Yeah.

00;45;42;22 - 00;46;01;03
Speaker 2
I've spent enough time Kansas City adjacent that it's home, you know, you mentioned where you went to school and on your website it says that you collect various undergrad or various graduate degrees from Kansas University. What's your favorite degree and school that you've earned so far?

00;46;01;18 - 00;46;19;19
Speaker 1
Are God my favorite degree? I guess probably like the Library Science Degree, because I am very much I mean, I'm very much a librarian, even though I'm not currently working in public libraries. I you know, I will not be surprised if once I get my kids off to school that I go back to that. I just I miss that work.

00;46;20;13 - 00;46;46;04
Speaker 1
So really, I love that as far as my favorite university I went to, I think as a as an undergraduate, I loved Emporia State University, although they've been in the news like they've made The New York Times for really cutting back on all of their programs, especially in the liberal arts department. So it's sad to see what has gone on with my alma mater because it was a great school when I went to it.

00;46;46;19 - 00;46;51;08
Speaker 2
The last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;46;51;23 - 00;47;23;01
Speaker 1
Oh, I just finished Elise Bryant's It's Elementary, which I mean, I just felt so seen. I think that's one of those accessible books I've ever read. It's so funny. It's all on the money. If you are a mom who has ever had kids in elementary school and had any association with PTA room parenting, any of that, or just the whole mom guilt of never being stretched thin and never being good enough for any of the things you're doing, man.

00;47;23;18 - 00;47;45;27
Speaker 1
Nailed it. It's so good. It's so funny. It's contemporary, it's realistic, it's a mystery. It's got a little bit of a love story as well and just nails the mom life in the most brilliant, compassionate way. So I highly recommend It's Elementary by Liz Bryant. I'm currently reading Love Grossman's new book, The Bright Sword, which I'm loving. I'm loving that guy.

00;47;45;28 - 00;48;12;18
Speaker 1
Just I don't know what it is. I just get sucked in and the rest of the world is appears. And I also like the way he really kind of incorporates it's Arthurian England, but there's a certain kind of modernity to it and the way people talk. And this notion that even in our three in England, even, you know, hundreds and thousands of years ago, people are still people and people when they interact, still interact as human beings.

00;48;12;18 - 00;48;17;29
Speaker 1
And I like kind of the informality of it. So that's what I'm hyped about right now.

00;48;18;16 - 00;48;22;21
Speaker 2
Well, thank you so much for hanging out with literary hype and talking about your books.

00;48;22;23 - 00;48;26;15
Speaker 1
Thank you for having me. I'm so glad this work this has been such a joy.

00;48;28;16 - 00;48;42;08
Speaker 2
Oh, my goodness. I love it. I love Megan so much. If you fell in love with Megan through this conversation and let's be real, you probably did. You're going to want to follow her on Instagram. And the link to do so is in the show notes. You know what else is in the show notes? Links to get her books.

00;48;42;14 - 00;48;57;23
Speaker 2
You definitely need these books. They are so much fun. So definitely check out those links in the show notes. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the literary podcast. Give us some stars and share this with a friend. Thanks so much for listening to the literary hype. Podcast.