LiteraryHype Podcast

61. KATHLEEN GLASGOW: Tough Topics in Teen Fiction, from alcoholism to depression

• Stephanie the LiteraryHypewoman / Kathleen Glasgow • Season 1 • Episode 61

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00;00;06;13 - 00;00;07;24
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype.

00;00;07;24 - 00;00;23;07
Speaker 2
I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman. Today's Off the Conversation is another one that's on the heavier side. For the most part, we do try to get it lightened up a little bit, but there are some heavier topics discussed in this just based on the nature of these books. So I do want to make sure that you are aware of what you're getting into.

00;00;23;07 - 00;00;48;09
Speaker 2
There are some discussions on teen alcoholism self-harm. So if those are triggering for you, maybe skip this one. Kathleen Glasgow is best known for her book, The Girl in Pieces, which just came out with a deluxe edition in paperback that has some journaling space in it. But her most recent fresh work is The Glass Girl. So this is the one that deals with the teen alcoholism and rehab.

00;00;48;09 - 00;01;10;29
Speaker 2
It's it's a pretty heavy book, but it is a really important book. Kathleen also does have some fun books, so we do talk about that. And those include the Agatha's which is a mystery series that she wrote with Liz Lawson. So there's a lot to discuss when it comes to Kathleen. So without any further ado, here is my conversation with her from the office welcome to Literary Hype.

00;01;10;29 - 00;01;27;14
Speaker 2
It's so exciting to have you on to talk about, well, mainly The Glass Girl, since that's what you're talking about right now. But you've written so many books that are iconic at this point. So for anybody who hasn't already seen A Word about the Glass Girl, tell us what this book is about.

00;01;27;22 - 00;01;53;13
Speaker 3
Well, first, let me say thank you for chatting with me. It's so lovely to meet you. And Charleston's beautiful and y'all first is a lot of fun. The Glass Girl is about 15 year old Bella, who struggles with severe anxiety. The fallout from her parents bitter divorce, grief over the death of her grandmother. And she has been self-medicating with alcohol since she was 11 and everything comes to a head one night when she goes to a party and winds up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.

00;01;53;13 - 00;02;24;01
Speaker 3
And after that it's off to rehab and she goes to Snoring Sunrise, which is a teen rehab in the desert outside Tucson. And it's run by well-meaning but perhaps not great at their jobs. People in recovery. And there she meets a group of kids who really show her that she's not alone in the world and what she's struggling with and in rehab she has to learn how to come to terms with the things that are making her drink in the first place and how to confront those issues.

00;02;24;08 - 00;02;36;20
Speaker 2
This is a very heavy book is several of your books? Yes, tend to be sometimes. So what was the research process like for the teen alcohol use and the rehab side? Of things?

00;02;37;01 - 00;03;00;12
Speaker 3
So I have been in recovery now for almost 18 years from alcohol addiction. And so some of it, it's not based on my life but some of the feelings and intentions are things that I could draw on because I started drinking very early when Bella did when I was 11. And so some of those things I drew on for the book, the thoughts and feelings, not the things that happened to her.

00;03;01;23 - 00;03;25;13
Speaker 3
And I did do research on addiction centers for teens in particular, like what a program might look like as I was trying to build Sonoran Sunrise as I was writing the book and like what kind of place do I want her to go to? And I, I settled on a sort of, it's not a survivalist program, but it does have an aspect of self-reliance in that they do try to teach the teens that they need to take care of their needs.

00;03;25;22 - 00;03;59;24
Speaker 3
Because somehow their needs are not being met in the outside world and they need to learn how to take care of themselves. And they also need to confront like their past trauma or abuses or issues that are leading them to substance abuse and alcohol abuse. And so I did research on that and some statistics about alcohol abuse among teens which is back on the rise now in a weird way, because they've done a pretty good job of messaging about fentanyl and so kids are afraid now to take those sorts of things.

00;03;59;24 - 00;04;22;23
Speaker 3
But, you know, drinking is easy because it's in your house. If your parents have it, it's in your friend's house. It's easy to get people to buy it for you. And once you reach 21, it is legal but I think it's a really interesting issue if you want to talk about it, like it is something that's pushed to you as being this is what you do as a teenager, right?

00;04;22;23 - 00;04;45;00
Speaker 3
From the media. And like what you see people doing and it's sort of a rite of passage. You watch teen movies and they go to a huge party and they have like red solo cups and the whole thing. And so it doesn't seem all that awful. Right. And the thing that I was thinking about when I was writing the book was you can go in and you can have like some drinks with friends at a party on a weekend.

00;04;46;15 - 00;04;56;28
Speaker 3
Some kids can't. It latches on to some kids and not others. And then it becomes a problem. And I was interested in the reasons behind why it latches on to some kids and not others.

00;04;57;04 - 00;05;04;15
Speaker 2
What was it like for you as someone who dealt with the same issues as this character, to put that onto the page for other people to read?

00;05;04;23 - 00;05;30;27
Speaker 3
I get that question a lot, and I do write I write contemporary, realistic fiction, and things have happened to me in life. And I like exploring those things in a fictional universe. And the things that I write about, like self-harm or addiction or grief there are things that have happened to me in my own life, but I don't want to write about my experiences because I've lived through them.

00;05;30;27 - 00;05;54;13
Speaker 3
And in that sense, I'm like, they're not that interesting to me. I want to put a fictional character through just that little kernel of something that happened to me and see how they would do with it. And I, you know, I'm very much a person who thinks that all art is really great because it's you get so invested in it and it's so emotional.

00;05;54;13 - 00;06;15;11
Speaker 3
And I've gone to art museums and looked at paintings and cried, right? Because something in it touched me that maybe I couldn't quite fully articulate. And the types of books that I write, some of the people who read them, especially kids, they're having those thoughts and feelings that my characters are having and they don't know how to articulate it in their real life.

00;06;15;11 - 00;06;25;11
Speaker 3
And if they can read this book about it, it helps them to understand themselves and feel less alone. And also sometimes it helps them have the words to ask for help.

00;06;25;14 - 00;06;33;17
Speaker 2
Recovery can be such a tricky area for a lot of people. How do you protect your own recovery when you're writing about something so personal?

00;06;33;28 - 00;07;09;29
Speaker 3
I would say that it helps me through my daily recovery. Part of my process is writing, like writing has always helped me through difficult things, and I'm a firm believer that art therapy is a great thing, that if you are having a problem or you're struggling with something, if you can take ten to 15 minutes a day and sit down and draw something or paint something or play the piano or write something down in your journal, it calms you down it can help you see things more clearly, and it is beneficial to not only your mind but your recovery process to be able to have a place where you can put what you're feeling down and

00;07;09;29 - 00;07;17;11
Speaker 3
so it's all it's all good for me. Like I have my happy place is writing, right? So I write and that aids me in my recovery.

00;07;17;21 - 00;07;21;29
Speaker 2
How do you take care of your own mental health as a whole.

00;07;22;04 - 00;07;22;12
Speaker 3
As a.

00;07;22;12 - 00;07;30;04
Speaker 2
Whole while you're writing? Because not just this book, but all these very heavy emotional books. How do you protect your mental health throughout all of this?

00;07;30;17 - 00;07;52;17
Speaker 3
Well, I'm no expert and I'm not a doctor or a therapist, and I could probably do better at some issues of protecting my own mental health. But I, I do a lot of things to take care of myself. And I have learned along the way not only to take care of myself, but also to take care with myself, because I think those are two different things.

00;07;52;17 - 00;08;13;20
Speaker 3
Like I can get myself fed and I know how to dress myself and I have a job and I can do my things. The taking care with yourself is a different thing. And that means learning how to value yourself as a human being on the face of the earth. And that's a much more difficult thing for people to do and the things that I do to get through my days.

00;08;14;13 - 00;08;41;18
Speaker 3
I take walks, I listen to a lot of music. I pet my dogs, I take them for walks, I take care of my kids. I watch a lot of TV, I read a lot of books. I'm a big reader because I've always found books to be a great comfort, even if the subject was sad. And I think a lot of readers feel the same way because then you feel like you've connected with your own emotions in some way in a safe place inside the book.

00;08;41;18 - 00;08;47;13
Speaker 3
And so I really do just take care of myself, like in those very simple ways and also through the art of writing.

00;08;47;28 - 00;08;51;24
Speaker 2
Because I like listening to this on the plane was very intense.

00;08;51;24 - 00;08;53;09
Speaker 3
The audio book is really great.

00;08;53;13 - 00;08;53;24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;08;53;24 - 00;08;58;24
Speaker 3
Like she Gayle did an amazing job as Bella, like an amazing.

00;08;58;24 - 00;09;14;15
Speaker 2
Job, especially like the more heightened emotional scenes. Like you feel it, right? Have you listen to the whole book or just have what was it like to hear your words back in that way? Like kind of in those really extreme moments.

00;09;15;06 - 00;09;39;06
Speaker 3
It's mind blowing when you listen to audio books of something that you've written and you've heard characters in your head as you're writing. But then to have someone articulate it and hear that in a verbal form, is really it's amazing. And Gail did such a good job. I'm really proud of the audio book because when you read the book, like the first the very first page that's Bella drunk.

00;09;39;13 - 00;09;57;27
Speaker 3
And I realized when I was writing this book, I would need to have these scenes where you see how Bella is when she's drunk and how she is. The other times which is basically hung over, although it isn't stated because she does drink so much, you need to see the difference in her thought process from when she's drinking alcohol and when she's not.

00;09;58;05 - 00;10;15;09
Speaker 3
And those really, I think, heightened scenes like especially the party where she's devolving further and further into her drunkenness to the point of a blackout. Like I heard it in my head as I was writing it and I knew and it looks different on the page, like a poem as she's deteriorating. And it was really it was quite amazing.

00;10;15;22 - 00;10;20;08
Speaker 2
What do you hope readers, especially teens, take away from this book?

00;10;20;27 - 00;10;47;12
Speaker 3
I hope that they realize they're not alone in whatever they're struggling with. I try to put things in the book that they could find and feel comfort in and feel seen even if they're not kids who are drinking or doing drugs. But they could they might feel alone like the elders. They might be struggling with anxiety. Their parents might have had a bad divorce and they're moving from house to house week to week.

00;10;47;12 - 00;11;09;08
Speaker 3
That was the definite subplot that I wanted in the book because I haven't seen that in my fiction yet. And I think it is really it's very difficult for kids in that situation, no matter how well-meaning their parents might be about it. It's hard. And I think that there are things in the book that any kid will be able to latch on to and see themselves in that situation, embellished situation.

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;17;17
Speaker 3
And I hope that they like I do when you read a book like that, you're like, I feel a little better now that I'm not alone and other people feel the same way that I do.

00;11;17;19 - 00;11;26;10
Speaker 2
And with previous book Girl in Pieces, which came out in 2016, what's it like for you to see this massive resurgence in this book?

00;11;26;27 - 00;11;56;18
Speaker 3
I wrote that book for myself being from the point of being a teenager who had struggled with self-harm and depression, and I hadn't seen a book quite like that. It's not the reason I wrote it, but I figured no one is going to publish this book about a girl who self-harm. And I was lucky in that I found an agent and an editor who editor who really championed what the book was about and understood it and believed in its value and it's always done well.

00;11;57;25 - 00;12;25;07
Speaker 3
The big resurgence was because of the tick tock, I think, and I had no idea. And for me, it's actually it's an honor. I get tons of handwritten letters and emails and people give me paintings that they've made based on girl in pieces, or they get tattoos inspired by the book. And it's it's really an honor that they are holding this book dear to themselves because they didn't have a book like that before.

00;12;25;07 - 00;12;46;13
Speaker 3
And suddenly they found one. And in the character of Charlie Davis, they saw themselves a girl who self-harm. And it's a very tough situation to be in. And finally they felt understood. And to me, that's like the biggest honor that I could have is that so many readers have responded to Charlie's story because it's them.

00;12;46;28 - 00;13;05;20
Speaker 2
And switching gears to a slightly lighter topic, as one does, it's like there's no real easy way to go from grilling pieces in the Glass Girl to the Agatha's. Right. It's a very different vibe. Right? So talk a little bit about the challenges of switching genres like that and writing with someone else.

00;13;06;04 - 00;13;36;02
Speaker 3
So Liz Lawson and I co-wrote the mystery series The Agatha's, which is book one, The Agatha Agatha's in book two. The Night in Question. And Liz wrote a stellar debut novel called The Lucky Ones, and it's about the aftermath of a school shooting. It's a beautiful little stunning book. It was a Kirkus Best Book of the Year, and it came out right when everything went into lockdown and it died and we have the same editor.

00;13;36;02 - 00;13;53;12
Speaker 3
So I had met her and we became friends. And we, you know, we message and talked back and forth because she lives in a different state. And it was the lockdown and I was having trouble writing You'd Be Home Now, which was very late, and it was already two. And she said, you know, I've been thinking about writing.

00;13;53;12 - 00;14;16;25
Speaker 3
Maybe I'll write a mystery like something fun. Like I just need something to take my mind off the world right now. That's like, you know, that sounds like a lot of fun. And she's a big mystery reader. Like, she loves Agatha Christie. And I really like true crime, not for the ghoulish ness of true crime, but the procedural aspects like how a case is cracked and also how long people can keep secrets for.

00;14;17;15 - 00;14;32;06
Speaker 3
And so we we made a good blend, and we just decided one day, like you know, we don't have anything to do this summer. Well, I was supposed to be doing something. We just said, what if we, like, wrote something together? And it was a mystery, like, no, one would expect that from us at all.

00;14;34;08 - 00;15;00;20
Speaker 3
And we came up with a spreadsheet and we came up with the story and dual P.O.V. of Alice and Iris, two teenagers who come together to solve this crime in a small seaside town. And we had our tropes and her blend of loving Agatha Christie and knowing lots of things you need to put in mystery novels. And me liking True Crime was like a really good blend and so every day she would email me her Alice chapter, and then I would write the Irish chapter and send it to her.

00;15;00;20 - 00;15;21;16
Speaker 3
So we traded every day and it was like a really freeing, wonderful experience because that person is writing with you. So if there's a problem, you have someone to talk to about it as opposed to when you're alone and writing a book. And we had a lot of fun and we really wanted it to be mainly about how these two very different girls from very different backgrounds become friends.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;39;23
Speaker 3
We were committed to that, and we just had a great freeing time because as a writer, you want to stretch your wings, and this was a good genre for us to stretch our wings and to move to mystery. And then at one point I was like, Well, we have to stop now because I have to turn this other book.

00;15;39;23 - 00;16;04;15
Speaker 3
And she's like, Actually, and that's when I found out she was much like her character Alice, who's very devious. She had already told her agent, like what we were writing, and her agent really liked it, and they they showed it to our editor who said, You know what, I really like this. And that's how the Agatha's happened. But the fact that we wrote it in secret was really it was really freeing to do something.

00;16;04;16 - 00;16;08;12
Speaker 3
When no one knows what you're doing, you can just do whatever you want. And it was great.

00;16;08;27 - 00;16;16;22
Speaker 2
How much value did that bring to you as a writer? To have something just for yourself for a while? And did that change how you felt about Book two?

00;16;17;08 - 00;16;31;04
Speaker 3
It did a little bit change about book, too, because what? So you're a writer and you're writing right? No one knows what you're doing. Like, no one knew what I was doing with Girl in Pieces. I was just writing it. I was writing it alone. I was a poet before I thought, I will. This seems this subject seems too big for a poem.

00;16;32;05 - 00;16;54;12
Speaker 3
It seems like a book, but I've never written a book, but I've read plenty of them. How hard could it be? And so I set myself a task of writing like a novel. But you're in a bubble then. And then if you're lucky enough to get your book published, you're not in a bubble anymore. They would like another book from you, and now you're doing things on a deadline.

00;16;54;12 - 00;17;17;04
Speaker 3
And so and there's a specter of people watching you, whether it's your editor or, like, readers wanting something new or if you're on social media trying to do that as well. And so the fact that we wrote The Agatha's in secret, I went back to that bubble, and it's a very nice free bubble where no one knows, and you can just do whatever you want without thinking about what the reaction will be.

00;17;17;14 - 00;17;38;08
Speaker 3
And so it was great. And then when they said, Will you write another one? I was like, Oh yes, we will write another one. But you have to get yourself when you're writing, you have to get yourself out of that mindset as best you can. Each time you write a book or the book isn't going to be true to itself because you're always going to think about what other people might say about it.

00;17;38;08 - 00;17;39;18
Speaker 3
If it sees the light of day.

00;17;39;29 - 00;17;41;12
Speaker 2
Is there going to be a book three?

00;17;42;28 - 00;18;03;16
Speaker 3
There might be a book three. Hopefully someday we need more people to read book one in book two, but there might be a book three, and we might have really good news about the Agatha's that rhymes with TV. Mary's soon. That's all I can say about that.

00;18;04;10 - 00;18;05;06
Speaker 2
OK, so whenever.

00;18;05;07 - 00;18;15;06
Speaker 3
I would just tell everyone, like, right now you should go pick up the Agatha's and the night in question because they're both in paperback and they have super cute covers and they're not long and it's, they're really good stories and they're a lot of fun.

00;18;16;00 - 00;18;26;08
Speaker 2
And you touched on being a poet, which was something I wanted to ask about as well. What did you learn as a poet about creativity that has helped you writing novels.

00;18;27;09 - 00;18;59;18
Speaker 3
To go with your gut and to try to be honest to what you're putting on the page into that feeling that you're trying to convey to the reader? Because I, you know, I was an emotional poet. I was a narrative poet. And so I'm a very narrative emotional writer. And I think that a lot of my poetry comes into my books, and I often incorporate poetry into the books, whether it's my own through a character or just mentioning poets in my books, like Mary Oliver or Anne Sexton and an and Sexton poem plays a big role in The Glass Girl.

00;18;59;21 - 00;19;05;18
Speaker 3
So and Fran has a poem in The Glass Girl, and I really loved writing that poem in Friends Voice.

00;19;06;02 - 00;19;11;19
Speaker 2
Well, one other thing about The Glass Girl, that kind of translated over into your social media as well is the Polaroids.

00;19;11;23 - 00;19;12;05
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;19;12;14 - 00;19;18;20
Speaker 2
So talk a little bit about the Polaroid concept and how it has changed how you see yourself now.

00;19;18;24 - 00;19;45;14
Speaker 3
So In The Glass Girl at Snoring Sunrise every morning when you get up, Tracy takes a picture of you, a Polaroid of you and puts it on the wall. And there's a whole wall of kids who've been a snore and sunrise. And you do this every day for 30 days. And the process is, is that as you go through the program for those 30 days, you will see how the physical body changes as you're moving away from your addiction.

00;19;45;28 - 00;20;08;16
Speaker 3
Like physically, your face is less puffy, your eyes are clearer, your clear. You'll see how you change on the outside. But you also see by the end of those 30 days how you changed on the inside because that is going to shine through and it's going to show in the photograph. And sometimes it's helpful for people to see that progress, like right in front of them in the form of a picture so every day they have to do this.

00;20;08;16 - 00;20;29;03
Speaker 3
And of course none of them like it in the beginning. And I did decide if Bella had to go through that, then I would. I would go through that as well. So I, I took those Polaroids to be in alliance with Bella and the kids from Senior and Sunrise in the book and I post them on social media and I hope that people see them like there I am with like no makeup.

00;20;29;03 - 00;20;40;08
Speaker 3
Like I'm sitting here with you and I have a fully made a face and it's hard because you feel really vulnerable, right? Have you taken a photo just like snapped a photo of yourself with like, no makeup, nothing. When was the last time you did that?

00;20;40;24 - 00;20;45;03
Speaker 2
Frequently, because I don't like makeup, just not for this as much.

00;20;45;03 - 00;20;56;22
Speaker 3
But you know what I mean. Like, when you're not feeling well. Yeah, like, just you might wait until you're like, oh, I'll take this picture. I don't wear makeup, but do you take one when you're not feeling happy? That's that's different.

00;20;57;06 - 00;21;01;29
Speaker 2
It's like you happy about it. I'm like, I take them when I'm with my husband doing adventures. Right, but I don't post them.

00;21;02;08 - 00;21;21;08
Speaker 3
Yeah, but you don't like if I wake up and I'm like, really tired and I'm not I'm not happy when I have to tell you that. You know, it's. It's a whole different photograph when you just take it and you're not, like, arranging yourself to look better or to look the way that you think, or you're happy you're out on an adventure.

00;21;21;08 - 00;21;41;12
Speaker 3
Right? But it's a whole different thing just to take a picture of yourself and, like, see bags under your eyes or, you know, you look tired and you're thinking about something, and it's consuming you. And it turns into, I think, a kind of art form which in the book translates into Bella thinking about her grandmother that she loved so much who was a photographer.

00;21;41;23 - 00;21;59;07
Speaker 3
And then at the end where she's going to keep doing the Polaroids of herself because I think that she is at the beginning of finding some of something that she can translate her anxiety into. And that's photography. And that's art is capturing something that we don't necessarily want to see all the time.

00;21;59;23 - 00;22;02;03
Speaker 2
What's something that brings you joy in your daily life?

00;22;03;03 - 00;22;11;27
Speaker 3
My kids I love my kids and my dogs and reading and watching TV. I'm kind of a basic person that way.

00;22;12;18 - 00;22;14;03
Speaker 2
It sounds like a great time.

00;22;14;03 - 00;22;19;21
Speaker 3
In listening to music. You know, I keep my life. I keep my life very simple and manageable for myself.

00;22;19;27 - 00;22;23;19
Speaker 2
Last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;22;23;19 - 00;22;38;04
Speaker 3
I'm very hyped about a book called Difficult Girls by Veronica Vane, which comes out in the spring. I'm reading the new Jennifer Indian book, so I can't talk about it, but it's Jennifer Aniston, and it's like blowing me away It's I mean, it's possible.

00;22;38;04 - 00;22;42;02
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for taking time to talk to literary hype. Thank you for chatting with me. And so lovely.

00;22;45;08 - 00;23;06;03
Speaker 2
Thanks again to Kathleen for taking time out of her golf schedule to sit with me and talk about some really heavy topics and also about the importance of finding joy even when life is hard. It's really important message that I hope you take away from this. If you're interested in getting a hold of any of Kathleen's books, including The Glass Girl, Girl in Pieces, The Agatha's, you'd be home by now.

00;23;06;04 - 00;23;23;06
Speaker 2
She's got so many books that deal with a lot of really heavy topics that are important for teens to have an outlet for discussion. So definitely check out those books and the links are down in the description for you if you enjoyed this conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast. Give us some stars and share it with a friend.

00;23;23;13 - 00;23;26;04
Speaker 2
Thanks so much for listening to Literary Type Podcast.