66. GRETCHEN SCHREIBER RETURNS! Love, Fate, and the perfect s'mores marshmallow

I am *thrilled* to welcome Gretchen Schreiber back to LiteraryHype. Her day job is working on Reese Witherspoon's book club at Hello Sunshine, and she writes books as well! Her newest release, All The Stars Align, is a magical realism story where a girl's family knows their true love from first sight.... but her best friend wants her to pick him instead.

Catch Gretchen's first LiteraryHype Podcast interview in episode 27.

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Ellie Haycock is Totally Normal
All The Stars Align

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Ellie Haycock is Totally Normal
All The Stars Align

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Ellie Haycock is Totally Normal
All The Stars Align

Transcript

00;00;03;08 - 00;00;37;25
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stefani, your literary hype woman. And today's author conversation is the absolute delight. I adore this author so much. We met a year of west 2024 right after her debut book Elly Haycock. This totally normal hit the world and made this grand debut. We became friends over the last year and so I am thrilled to get to talk to her again about her brand new book All the Stars Align This one is a little bit more magical realism than Ellie was, but there are some characteristics that you'll see between the two books, and I absolutely love it.

00;00;37;25 - 00;01;07;09
Speaker 1
Plus we might have a very in-depth conversation on s'mores and marshmallows and s'mores. So I hope you're hungry so that you do. Here's my conversation with Gretchen Schreiber welcome to Literary Hype. It's so exciting to have you back on the show to talk about your brand new book. All the Stars Align So for anyone who hasn't seen this book already, what's it about?

00;01;07;16 - 00;01;08;24
Speaker 2
So this is about.

00;01;08;24 - 00;01;32;10
Speaker 3
A girl named Piper who all of the women in her family have know their true love at first sight. And she her biggest goal in life is to, like, prove she is part of her family because she doesn't look like any of her family because she's physically disabled. And what happens when she meets the true love of her life or who she thinks is is the true love of her life.

00;01;32;10 - 00;01;35;19
Speaker 2
And she.

00;01;35;19 - 00;01;56;01
Speaker 3
Realizes that fate is a little bit of a cruel bitch and that she knows her true love, but her true love will not automatically love her. And so she has to team up with her best friend to sort of help romance him. And along the way, what happens when her best friend Leo says, pick me, choose me, love me instead?

00;01;56;13 - 00;02;01;23
Speaker 3
And so she has to decide will love choose her fate or fate to choose her love?

00;02;02;03 - 00;02;04;13
Speaker 1
The marketing team did a great job with that line.

00;02;05;00 - 00;02;09;11
Speaker 3
I mean, for reals. I was like, Oh, they ate that. They cooked.

00;02;09;17 - 00;02;10;19
Speaker 2
What did they say?

00;02;10;19 - 00;02;13;09
Speaker 1
Now somebody cooked here.

00;02;13;19 - 00;02;14;29
Speaker 2
I'm ready. Cooked here.

00;02;15;17 - 00;02;20;27
Speaker 1
Is perfect. And it is such a great setup for this story. What was your initial spark?

00;02;20;27 - 00;02;50;08
Speaker 3
When I write stories kind of like about disability, I always try to think of like, what is the thing that nobody is going to have heard of before? Or like, what is something that I can bring to the world that is like new and different and like surprising? And I think one of those things often revolves around like the emotional feel of like the impact of emotions around being disabled and one of those things is that like, what does it mean to not look like your family and like, what does that do?

00;02;50;08 - 00;02;53;18
Speaker 3
Like to you like mentally and like.

00;02;54;02 - 00;02;54;08
Speaker 2
These.

00;02;54;08 - 00;03;18;22
Speaker 3
Are my family. They love me. They want the best for me, comma. However, like, if I look at a photo of my family, I am not there like I stick out. And so I wanted that to sort of be the underpinning of all of this of like that is like Piper's emotional driving for me, but it needed to have like.

00;03;18;26 - 00;03;23;20
Speaker 2
Like it's kind of a Debbie Downer of an emotional core or, you know, it.

00;03;23;29 - 00;03;29;27
Speaker 3
Could be also a really down story. So like, how do we explore that without being like.

00;03;30;09 - 00;03;36;06
Speaker 2
Here we're going to now sit down and explore the emotional turmoil of a six of an 18 year old girl.

00;03;37;22 - 00;03;44;14
Speaker 3
And I wanted to do something a little bit magical. And what would that how would that like up the stakes and really set the stage of like.

00;03;45;10 - 00;03;46;06
Speaker 2
This.

00;03;46;06 - 00;04;07;11
Speaker 3
Is this is a way that I can fit in. This is a way that I can be a part of of my family, of my history. That, like, no one may look like me, but that doesn't matter because like I have a fairy tale story that will fit in with like all of the fairy tale stories, right? So like, Piper's like adherence to I will have the.

00;04;07;22 - 00;04;08;16
Speaker 2
Best.

00;04;09;13 - 00;04;27;00
Speaker 3
Romance story because like her mom and her aunts, they all have these like this how I met the love of my life. And, you know, one of her aunts met them in like a tattoo shop halfway around the world. One of them, like, literally found true love like at an airport and like, bought a ticket just to, like, continue talking to this person.

00;04;27;00 - 00;04;38;12
Speaker 3
And one of them, like, found love on the side of the road. Her mother famously, like, infamously I guess in her family, you know, met her father and then they didn't talk for an entire year, you know, so like there was a question of like.

00;04;38;12 - 00;04;39;15
Speaker 2
Will it continue.

00;04;39;15 - 00;04;45;01
Speaker 3
Or not? And so Piper is just like deterred and to have that moment to.

00;04;45;12 - 00;05;06;12
Speaker 1
And since you touched on her disability and this book is dedicated to the visibly disabled girls yes. I wonder why now. I'm just kidding. Talk a little bit about how important it is for you to have disability representation on the page and how things are changing or not in publishing.

00;05;07;17 - 00;05;12;26
Speaker 2
You mean here's my soapbox. Let me just step up here. Yes. I love.

00;05;13;04 - 00;05;14;12
Speaker 1
Boxes. Get on it, girl.

00;05;14;18 - 00;05;16;05
Speaker 2
I mean, it's one of those.

00;05;16;05 - 00;05;39;23
Speaker 3
Things that, like, you realize, like when you start writing and you start doing some of this work of how, like, starved for representation you actually are and how you have become OK, with your own erasure for, like, the best of reasons or the most, you know, you understand, like, I understand that.

00;05;40;14 - 00;05;41;10
Speaker 2
It's a sex.

00;05;41;21 - 00;05;42;05
Speaker 3
Like.

00;05;42;15 - 00;05;44;28
Speaker 2
I can walk.

00;05;44;28 - 00;06;13;22
Speaker 3
Into any bookstore and like, my fave, like, not my favorite thing, but like the quickest way to, like, stomp a bookseller is to be like, I want a book with a visibly physically disabled woman at the center of this story. And nine times out of ten, you get this like look of absolute sheer panic from, from your bookseller because they're like because it's usually like Chloe, Lisa, or, and like, none of these books are bad.

00;06;13;23 - 00;06;38;05
Speaker 3
I'm not, like, trying to, like, rag on them. It's like there is a Talia Hibbert, like the only other one that maybe people now know about is the Hannah Burnham Yangs out on a limb. Like, there's that. But like, otherwise, like I cannot walk into any section in the bookstore and be like, Oh, here's my representation. Especially when you get into like visible disability, like there's nothing there.

00;06;38;05 - 00;06;49;14
Speaker 3
Like becomes even less and the idea that you could find love, happiness, acceptance that you could, but to be in the middle of a love triangle, like are, are like foreign.

00;06;49;21 - 00;06;50;10
Speaker 2
Concept.

00;06;50;10 - 00;06;59;27
Speaker 3
Cups because you have to deal with all of these like layers of like, well, here is my issue book because publishing loves an issue book because that is, you know, whatever.

00;07;01;10 - 00;07;03;15
Speaker 2
And is it changing?

00;07;04;25 - 00;07;09;07
Speaker 3
I don't know. I am a pessimist.

00;07;09;15 - 00;07;12;00
Speaker 2
So look like.

00;07;12;21 - 00;07;41;01
Speaker 3
You know, OK, I'm a realist, borderline pessimist. I don't think it's changing enough. I think there is change. It's certainly better than when I was a kid. But the bar is still in hell. But like we have not even like we're maybe on like level five now instead of like all the way at level nine, you know, Dante's Inferno, anyone, which I'm sure we're all waiting for, kind of assess.

00;07;41;01 - 00;08;03;01
Speaker 3
It's still not great. We're still not even at ground level and I don't necessarily know how to fix it because disability always feels like that thing that gets told, wait your turn. Like, hold on, we have to fix all these other things first. And I'm like, OK, but if we wait, like, then we won't be here.

00;08;03;15 - 00;08;06;27
Speaker 2
You may get really down or no to end on. It's OK.

00;08;07;15 - 00;08;23;00
Speaker 1
It might not, but it's an important thing to think about of like, yeah, we're trying to be more diverse in our reading, in our writing and all these different ways, but where do you draw? I don't know. Draw the line feels like the wrong.

00;08;23;00 - 00;08;42;08
Speaker 3
Phrase, but like it's like, how do you there's so much going on right now in the world. There's so much need for representation. And I think like if you want to see what it's like to have no representation and where like, you know, these bands end up and how that affects look at what has been done to disabled readers.

00;08;42;08 - 00;09;11;13
Speaker 3
Look at what has been done to disabled representation because it's not like it's just sheer erasure. It's just sheer erasure that results in like people not caring about this language that gets thrown around and like I'm not one to police language all the time, but like you know, it's the erasure of like, oh, here is our history of like how like oppression has been like wielded against disabled people throughout the years and no one knows about ugly laws.

00;09;11;13 - 00;09;20;27
Speaker 3
The, the Section five for the fact that the ADA which like guarantees as a right to vote or not even a right of that which guarantees us lots of basic civil liberties was.

00;09;20;27 - 00;09;21;07
Speaker 2
Passed in.

00;09;21;07 - 00;09;23;23
Speaker 3
1990. It's younger than I am.

00;09;24;02 - 00;09;29;01
Speaker 1
I did not know that either so that's good to know so back to the book anyway.

00;09;29;01 - 00;09;31;24
Speaker 2
Back to the book of the happy go lucky book.

00;09;32;26 - 00;09;36;28
Speaker 1
I mean what you really call it happy go lucky because it's it is a lot of feelings.

00;09;37;09 - 00;09;45;10
Speaker 2
Is that not I guess a staple of a Gretchen Schreiber original headline. I'm just that girl from Mean Girls a lot of feeling.

00;09;46;01 - 00;09;52;21
Speaker 1
Since you don't really love feeling the feelings and writing the feelings, how do you put all the feeling into a feeling book?

00;09;54;12 - 00;09;56;28
Speaker 3
I'm an Aquarius, so I intellectualize everything.

00;09;57;27 - 00;09;59;17
Speaker 2
Especially when it comes to.

00;09;59;17 - 00;09;59;23
Speaker 3
My.

00;09;59;23 - 00;10;00;17
Speaker 2
Feelings.

00;10;02;03 - 00;10;21;09
Speaker 3
I like that. I think I start with that like base feeling of like what does it mean to not feel like a part of my family, which, like, you can like, like, not argue but like is a valid feeling and a lie. Like your feelings are lying to you at the same time of like, of course you're part of your family, but this is what you feel like.

00;10;22;15 - 00;10;44;23
Speaker 3
And then I think about, like, how that, like, affects everything right? So, like, Piper has been in love with her best friend Leo for years and like, is kind of a little angry at fate for being like a real right bitch, like, and being, like, her being like, come on, just like, make it Leo, right? Like, this would be perfect.

00;10;44;29 - 00;10;45;19
Speaker 3
And fate is like.

00;10;46;19 - 00;10;48;02
Speaker 2
But what if we didn't?

00;10;49;00 - 00;11;02;23
Speaker 3
You know, I think friendship break ups, which is like in the book, like, Leo and Piper and like a six month friendship break that he requested for obvious reasons.

00;11;03;14 - 00;11;21;13
Speaker 2
That are not all over her head, because she's like, what ever that happens. It's just like, well, let me because again, girl was a feeling. I don't want to feel that so I think like those.

00;11;21;13 - 00;11;43;12
Speaker 3
Big emotions and usually they're tied to something that like, I felt like I've gone through several friendship breakups that are just like hugely impactful. And I like the aftermath of what you're living through is like the biggest question and like how that starts to, like, affect everything of how you think about yourself and how you think about others and like.

00;11;44;21 - 00;11;44;28
Speaker 2
And.

00;11;45;15 - 00;12;03;05
Speaker 3
Like, I'm also like a very closed off. I don't like expressing my emotions, but like inside I feel everything. And so like, I'm like a box to just not be like, look, you know, all the time and so like, rich, emotional, internal life.

00;12;03;20 - 00;12;05;15
Speaker 2
Stoic cement.

00;12;05;15 - 00;12;06;19
Speaker 3
Block outside.

00;12;07;17 - 00;12;08;02
Speaker 2
Your book.

00;12;09;15 - 00;12;16;13
Speaker 1
So many people are like that. They they they keep it all inside. Do you ever reach the point where it just you can't keep it inside anymore and just.

00;12;16;13 - 00;12;19;02
Speaker 2
But yeah, yeah. I'll ask my friends.

00;12;19;02 - 00;12;19;21
Speaker 3
About that some time.

00;12;20;23 - 00;12;33;28
Speaker 2
It's about explode. Sometimes you get too much pressure in there and all of a sudden you're like and you're like, oh, that, that. Oh, yeah, sorry. Everybody. I just had a feel like a lot of feelings that just disappeared.

00;12;33;28 - 00;12;36;18
Speaker 3
From the asylum of my brain.

00;12;37;22 - 00;12;43;11
Speaker 2
I'm just going to like, let me just let me grab that back. Thank you. Don't worry. I'm fine.

00;12;44;17 - 00;12;53;14
Speaker 3
You know, and I think the idea of, like, feeling emotions internally that you're not sure you can express outwardly, I think is like a.

00;12;53;14 - 00;12;54;10
Speaker 2
Big.

00;12;55;15 - 00;13;00;06
Speaker 3
Thing in my books. Like, Ellie does that I mean, Ellie is private example of what happens.

00;13;00;06 - 00;13;04;29
Speaker 2
When you don't express and then you express.

00;13;04;29 - 00;13;07;09
Speaker 3
All at once. That sounds really gross, but like.

00;13;07;17 - 00;13;14;10
Speaker 2
You know, everything comes out and it's like, oh, oops, oops. Oh, that I did it. I didn't mean to.

00;13;14;10 - 00;13;15;15
Speaker 3
But I let it. Like.

00;13;15;25 - 00;13;17;22
Speaker 2
I kept it pressurized for too long.

00;13;17;22 - 00;13;27;07
Speaker 3
And then it blows a hole and everything comes out. And I think for, for Piper, everything sort of comes out. Piper has better.

00;13;27;07 - 00;13;32;22
Speaker 2
Parents. Let's just say. And then Ellie does like better parents in.

00;13;32;22 - 00;13;33;12
Speaker 3
Terms of like.

00;13;33;28 - 00;13;41;15
Speaker 2
We are trying our best child to make you open up and you are a locked little box.

00;13;41;28 - 00;13;53;07
Speaker 1
You touched on the friendship breakup versus romantic break ups. So talk a little bit about exploring that kind of dynamic when you have a friendship breakup because of a romantic entanglement.

00;13;53;18 - 00;14;12;07
Speaker 3
Well, when I think friendship breakups are really hard any time because like no one starts a friendship thinking it will ever end, right? Like when you start a relationship, like a romantic relationship, there's always like that lingering thought in the back of your mind, this could end, this could end, we could break up, we could do all these things.

00;14;12;07 - 00;14;39;20
Speaker 3
And it would be sad. But like there is such a like roadmap of how to, like, get yourself out, like, you know, post-breakup, like how do you, like, cheer yourself up, do get back out there, et cetera, et cetera. But there's nothing really like that for when a friend, like, breaks up with you or that you break up with a friend and like, you know, there is there's sometimes a discussion there, sometimes not.

00;14;39;20 - 00;14;43;24
Speaker 3
And the idea that, like, you just are left with all of these.

00;14;43;24 - 00;14;44;24
Speaker 2
Questions.

00;14;47;18 - 00;14;52;17
Speaker 3
I think for like Leo and Piper specifically, their friendship.

00;14;53;06 - 00;14;54;01
Speaker 2
Is.

00;14;54;15 - 00;15;20;05
Speaker 3
I mean, it's decades old like. Right. Like it's talked about in the book. They like were born within days of each other. Their mothers were friends. They constantly see each other. And I think for Leo, he is trying the best he can as like an 18 year old boy dum dum to like respect Piper like he knows that the like because they're besties.

00;15;20;15 - 00;15;49;24
Speaker 3
He knows that like the most important thing to her is finding true love. And that is like the the end all and be all of what she wants. And so when it becomes like untenable for him to, like, exist as her friend when he wants more, he knows that for like her, I've got to go because, like, I will do something that will cause her pain and I want to help her.

00;15;50;15 - 00;15;53;16
Speaker 3
Piper obviously doesn't see it like that because she's like, but we're fine.

00;15;54;03 - 00;16;03;17
Speaker 2
Bestie, what's wrong? And he's like, No, no, don't call me. I'll call you but.

00;16;03;17 - 00;16;11;00
Speaker 3
Like, she is kind of left adrift in that. Granted, God bless Diana for dealing with both of their mopey asses.

00;16;13;25 - 00;16;24;09
Speaker 2
Like, at some point, I think she says basically that of like, I can't deal with you both anymore, Dad. Like, you talk, you listen, you now talk.

00;16;24;09 - 00;16;25;04
Speaker 3
You now listen.

00;16;27;21 - 00;16;34;15
Speaker 3
But like, I think that, like, sort of inner turmoil of like you're breaking up with somebody for the best.

00;16;34;15 - 00;16;35;14
Speaker 2
Reasons.

00;16;36;02 - 00;16;59;02
Speaker 3
Is like also really like fraught with, like, emotions and tension because they didn't want anybody in this situation to ever come off as a bad guy. Because I think it's really easy when you're dealing with like disabled romance to like have a breakup of any kind come off as like well, they're breaking up with you because you're disabled, right?

00;16;59;02 - 00;17;20;16
Speaker 3
Like and I did it with Ellie and I've done it now. And it's like both of them have breakups and in both of those moments, I was like, I want to make it very clear that none of this has to do with the fact that they're disabled. Like for Ellie, the breakup with Jack is because she doesn't open up to him.

00;17;20;21 - 00;17;22;08
Speaker 3
She is that like brick wall.

00;17;22;08 - 00;17;28;00
Speaker 2
Like emotions all deep down. I feel it on the inside. But like, I don't know how to tell him because I'm a scared.

00;17;28;00 - 00;17;45;26
Speaker 3
Little baby, and that's fine. You're very baby. And with Piper, it's literally her making a choice and that's like the hardest thing is, is that she's saying this could work, but maybe it won't. And I'm choosing something else.

00;17;46;05 - 00;17;54;08
Speaker 1
And that kind of goes into Piper's relationship with her parents because parents of Disabled Kids is a theme among your books.

00;17;54;19 - 00;17;56;04
Speaker 2
I mean, it's I think it's.

00;17;56;04 - 00;18;32;19
Speaker 3
Something and it's a really fraught conversation to have because parents, siblings, et cetera, can dominate. So much of the conversation. You know, we always hear about how hard it is to be a caregiver, how hard it is to be like the glass children and how hard it is to be a sibling of a disabled person. And so, like, you can unintentionally, as a disabled person, pick up all of that guilt, which is like Ellie and that was like a big part of Ellie is like moment of loss, like the guilt she feels for what her life has done to her mom.

00;18;33;15 - 00;18;34;27
Speaker 2
And in.

00;18;34;27 - 00;18;55;09
Speaker 3
This, I think Piper has like a similar feeling of guilt. But again, it's sort of like pitched in a different note where it's not like oh, here is X, Y, Z that like Ellie is dealing with in the real world, it's like, did I break my parents? Did I break our blessing? And if I broke our blessing, what does that mean for me?

00;18;56;25 - 00;19;07;07
Speaker 3
You know, like, what does that mean? I'm really not like my family. Like, not only do I not look like my family, but do I not even get this, like, great thing that we have? And if that's true.

00;19;07;15 - 00;19;09;06
Speaker 2
What the fuck is that mean?

00;19;09;20 - 00;19;40;18
Speaker 3
I think the other thing, while it was like very clear, the like decisions and the divorce and everything and Ellie were like very clear. I wanted it to be something different with Piper's parents because her parents are like newly divorced. They are not still married, you know, and and it really being in this, like, conflict of like some I can love someone so much and it can not work out and like, marriage can just not work.

00;19;41;09 - 00;19;56;01
Speaker 3
And we have pushed and pride and we have gone on for as long as we fucking can and now we're done. Like, I can't do like I have to love me more and value like her mom is like I have to value me more so that you value you more.

00;19;56;12 - 00;20;05;01
Speaker 1
What's it like for you crafting the blessing and like the feelings that come with the blessing and that whole magical thread of her family?

00;20;05;06 - 00;20;05;20
Speaker 2
I mean, I.

00;20;05;20 - 00;20;43;00
Speaker 3
Had a great amount of fun, like, playing around with like, how do you meet people? What is like love at first sight? Feel like like this like idea of like, I could know somebody is like perfect for me, right? Because, like, that's always like the, the scary part, right? Of like a relationship of like, is this the one and there's something so secure in knowing that, like, that person is the one and like, that is like the big fight between you're not fake but like, that's the ongoing fight between Piper and Leo because Leo dates like everybody and Piper is like, I don't date because what's the point of dating?

00;20;43;06 - 00;21;08;27
Speaker 3
You're not the one, right? And so I think there's something really interesting in that, like, waiting to just be so sure about something because I think as a teenager when I was, whether it was like college, what I was doing after school programs, the classes I was actually taking in school, like there was just this feeling of like all I want is like a magic eight ball.

00;21;09;23 - 00;21;14;25
Speaker 3
All I want is like the big sign and the side of the highway that says.

00;21;15;10 - 00;21;15;29
Speaker 2
This way.

00;21;15;29 - 00;21;17;05
Speaker 3
Lies, happiness.

00;21;17;13 - 00;21;18;21
Speaker 2
This way lives good.

00;21;18;21 - 00;21;19;25
Speaker 3
Things, right?

00;21;20;02 - 00;21;21;27
Speaker 2
And like, none of us get that. Like, that's like we.

00;21;21;27 - 00;21;31;21
Speaker 3
All want that at some point. And so I think like well, what would how cool would it be to finally get that sign? To finally have like this is like if you follow this path.

00;21;32;12 - 00;21;32;22
Speaker 2
It will.

00;21;32;22 - 00;21;38;28
Speaker 3
Be happy but the flip side is she like sort of signs that the book happy isn't.

00;21;38;28 - 00;21;41;03
Speaker 2
Always the biggest.

00;21;41;03 - 00;21;46;06
Speaker 3
Best thing. You know, it just because you are happy doesn't mean there are regrets.

00;21;46;12 - 00;21;55;02
Speaker 1
Because of the blessing. Piper's family is very obsessed with family traditions and and and they really, really love their family traditions.

00;21;55;12 - 00;21;56;25
Speaker 2
As a family tradition.

00;21;57;08 - 00;21;59;28
Speaker 1
Is there a family tradition that you have that you really love?

00;22;00;10 - 00;22;26;16
Speaker 3
Oh, my gosh, I do. So I for the longest time of my childhood, I had no idea what Black Friday was. I have no idea that people got up, like, at four. I like I mean, 4 a.m. to go off and do things. I completely the biggest tradition for my family was we would do Thanksgiving and then my grandparents would come and, like, stay at a hotel in my hometown.

00;22;26;23 - 00;22;46;25
Speaker 3
And then they would come over and we would watch Christmas movies and make cocoa and we would decorate the entire house on the Friday after Thanksgiving for Christmas. And like it was this whole thing of like it had food and it had like, you know, like I to this day, there are lines of like holiday movies that I can, like, just quote.

00;22;46;25 - 00;23;02;13
Speaker 3
And they like they start whole running jokes in my family because of like the things that we do. And so, like, those are like the some of the traditions that like, I think of the most of like, oh, this became like a family event.

00;23;03;14 - 00;23;19;04
Speaker 1
Piper also has some very strong feelings about marshmallows and s'mores which I know you also have some things you want to enlighten the world, how you feel a proper small you should be maybe.

00;23;19;25 - 00;23;24;20
Speaker 2
You know, I feel like is my sacred duty to talk about how marshmallows should be prepared for s'more.

00;23;26;06 - 00;23;50;14
Speaker 3
I think first you need to like properly toast the meal all the way through because like it's got to get gooey in the center. Like there's nothing worse than, like, biting into a marshmallow that's like crispy on the outside. And it is still like completely like solid congealed in the center. Like, no, thank you. Gross. So, like, first you got to, like, roast it, and then once you get that, like, sort of.

00;23;50;14 - 00;23;54;14
Speaker 2
Roast, perfect roast going on, you just got to, like, stick.

00;23;54;14 - 00;24;20;26
Speaker 3
It in the flames and like, char that sucker, like, nobody's business. I personally, I don't even need a graham cracker. I don't even need chocolate. I will eat a perfectly roasted firecracker s'mores like candy cane, like just one after the other after the other. Keep them coming and give me ten of them like, that's my preferred dessert. But if you must do it some more, I'm very classic.

00;24;21;02 - 00;24;24;13
Speaker 3
Graham cracker, chocolate marshmallow, graham cracker, pull it off the stick.

00;24;24;25 - 00;24;25;23
Speaker 2
Kind of thing.

00;24;26;14 - 00;24;29;15
Speaker 3
I've been told Reese's Peanut Butter Cups are really great in place.

00;24;29;15 - 00;24;30;26
Speaker 2
Of chocolate, which I could get behind.

00;24;31;05 - 00;24;34;21
Speaker 3
But again, honestly, purest, just give me a really great marshmallow.

00;24;34;28 - 00;24;42;26
Speaker 1
I have had some with with Reese's and with Carmelo's and they're both good. But the original does still slop the best junk.

00;24;43;03 - 00;24;51;28
Speaker 3
It's like the perfect bit of nostalgia mixed with like, I don't know, there's something about like crispy sugar.

00;24;52;25 - 00;24;54;25
Speaker 2
That just this just does it for me.

00;24;55;02 - 00;25;04;12
Speaker 1
So you would not be down for the, like, tick tock hack of getting, like, a bag of telegrams and just shoving the marshmallow and chocolate in it and then just, like, squishing it up and eating it with a fork.

00;25;04;25 - 00;25;06;26
Speaker 2
No, no. Now.

00;25;07;14 - 00;25;25;17
Speaker 3
I might need to like if I did that, like, mix it up, I might need to, like, brew, lay it like a little blowtorch or something. Like, I really need that, like, gooey, like that, like pull consistency, you know, like they have cheese pulls. Like, I feel like you should be able to do a marshmallow pull with your marshmallow.

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;27;22
Speaker 3
And if you can't, then, oh, no, thank you.

00;25;28;13 - 00;25;39;23
Speaker 1
But speaking of a not so lovely things, let's talk a little bit about the sophomore slump because this is your sophomore book. Oh, I'm sorry.

00;25;40;14 - 00;25;41;27
Speaker 2
No, no, it's fine.

00;25;41;27 - 00;26;00;08
Speaker 3
It's but look, everyone will warn you about it. Every author will tell you book, too, will eat your soul book too well into you. If you can make it through book two, you're good. You got this. You can go on. And let me tell you, you as a debut are like, I can make it through book two.

00;26;00;08 - 00;26;03;07
Speaker 2
I just ran the gantlet of debut year. What do you mean?

00;26;03;20 - 00;26;11;00
Speaker 3
And that is like because I just read this book, like book two is the quarter quel. You did not know you signed up for.

00;26;13;15 - 00;26;15;25
Speaker 1
What was your quarter quel book like?

00;26;16;23 - 00;26;22;21
Speaker 2
It was hell. Like, I loved it. Don't get me wrong. I had so much fun.

00;26;22;21 - 00;26;44;09
Speaker 3
Writing it and so much fun creating this world. But good god, I was not prepared to like, actually like, go through this process like you think you are because like, I've been writing for years. I wrote four books, three books that were shelved before Ali came out. Like I knew how to, like, churn and do and write and all of these things.

00;26;44;15 - 00;26;46;17
Speaker 3
And no one will prepare you for the like.

00;26;48;28 - 00;27;01;11
Speaker 3
The, the expectations you placed upon yourself of like, I finally got a seat at this table. Like, I have to make sure that my agent still loves me and that my editor still wants me and that, like, you know, all of that.

00;27;01;11 - 00;27;02;00
Speaker 2
And then on.

00;27;02;00 - 00;27;19;15
Speaker 3
Top of that, you finally learn how to, like, quiet that internal editor. That's like, no, I don't want that. That's dumb. This is whatever. And then because every debut does this and if, if a debut hasn't done it like God like bottle how you did it and sell it to every author because they will pay a premium for it.

00;27;19;26 - 00;27;21;03
Speaker 3
But you read your reviews.

00;27;21;14 - 00;27;22;13
Speaker 2
You read your.

00;27;22;13 - 00;27;28;19
Speaker 3
Reviews and you shut it and everyone tells you don't read your reviews and you're like, I'm not going to read my reviews. But then you're like, You know what? I could read my.

00;27;28;19 - 00;27;30;11
Speaker 2
Reviews at a big, tough girl.

00;27;30;28 - 00;27;31;11
Speaker 3
No.

00;27;32;11 - 00;27;35;27
Speaker 2
No, stop it. Because suddenly.

00;27;36;01 - 00;27;38;19
Speaker 3
That internal editor acquires an assistant and.

00;27;38;19 - 00;27;39;07
Speaker 2
That assistant.

00;27;39;07 - 00;27;40;02
Speaker 3
Is an upstart.

00;27;40;02 - 00;27;41;00
Speaker 2
Little bitch.

00;27;42;04 - 00;27;49;18
Speaker 3
And they are like, suddenly you're writing not just trying to create your own thoughts, but like, will they will will the.

00;27;49;18 - 00;27;50;02
Speaker 2
The.

00;27;50;02 - 00;27;54;29
Speaker 3
The people who hated my book, will they like it this way? Well, maybe I should write it this way. Maybe I should do this way.

00;27;55;09 - 00;27;56;12
Speaker 2
Maybe I shouldn't do that.

00;27;56;12 - 00;27;57;12
Speaker 3
Maybe I'll do this.

00;27;57;24 - 00;27;58;06
Speaker 2
And so I.

00;27;58;06 - 00;28;10;12
Speaker 3
Feel like in some respects, I let the I let that upstart I'm an assistant critic in my head get into me. And I.

00;28;10;12 - 00;28;12;00
Speaker 2
Feel like there are aspects.

00;28;12;00 - 00;28;23;01
Speaker 3
Of a-to-z that I wrote in response to how many people hated Ali or I should say how many people I perceived hated Ellie.

00;28;25;05 - 00;28;30;00
Speaker 3
And am I proud of that? No, my part of the book. But yeah.

00;28;30;10 - 00;28;35;04
Speaker 2
I mean, it's like it's happy times, but it's also like it.

00;28;35;22 - 00;28;40;26
Speaker 3
It will be what it will be. And I am OK with that. There is a lot.

00;28;40;29 - 00;28;41;24
Speaker 2
Of.

00;28;42;21 - 00;28;59;19
Speaker 3
There is a lot of love there is a lot of heartache. There is a lot like and not just like the emotions that are felt in the book, but like the process is just a lot of emotions, a lot of heartache. A lot of how like coming off of a debut that like a debut there that was like.

00;28;59;26 - 00;29;01;02
Speaker 2
Real rough.

00;29;01;26 - 00;29;14;29
Speaker 3
For reasons beyond my control and like trying to do a second book in that process, losing my agent, getting a new agent, trying to launch a book, like all of these things like.

00;29;15;07 - 00;29;23;01
Speaker 2
It was hard and it just I am trying.

00;29;23;01 - 00;29;50;00
Speaker 3
To work myself back into a place as a writer where I just like writing again and that I can like writing and I do love writing enough to continue to pursue publication because those two things are two separate things. I'm like, anyone can be a writer, write stories like Get it out of your head. Talk to the little voices that talk to you.

00;29;50;15 - 00;30;12;19
Speaker 3
Hey, excuse me, but like seeking publication and choosing to enter that, like, grind, for lack of a better word, is like a whole different mindset of you find out how much your, like, value is. You find out what readers will think of you. No one is afraid to tell you how much they hate your book.

00;30;12;26 - 00;30;17;16
Speaker 2
People are a little afraid to tell you how much they love your book. It is.

00;30;17;16 - 00;30;18;11
Speaker 3
A self.

00;30;18;11 - 00;30;20;05
Speaker 2
Worth sabotage.

00;30;20;29 - 00;30;44;12
Speaker 3
If you are not building a very strong base in how much you love doing the actual work because there are so many distractions and in the grind of am I doing enough? Tick tock, am I posting enough? Am I am I grateful enough to like readers? Good God the like. The discourse right now is very strong about how about influencers and authors and like, what is art like?

00;30;44;14 - 00;30;46;16
Speaker 2
Like I'm just I'm just here to write a book.

00;30;46;18 - 00;31;08;23
Speaker 3
I'm just here to write a book. Like I know how hard it is to, like, read a book and make content about it. Why? Because I to write a book and make content about it. Like we're all in this together. Like, you know, our little like Disney channel, original music songs. Exactly. Never actually seen it continue in the street and.

00;31;10;05 - 00;31;10;18
Speaker 1
Get out.

00;31;11;19 - 00;31;14;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, I know. I know the reference. I know what it's about anyway.

00;31;15;18 - 00;31;19;02
Speaker 2
So yeah, it, it is a.

00;31;19;02 - 00;31;24;08
Speaker 3
Very rough space to be in and it is a rough space to be.

00;31;24;08 - 00;31;24;23
Speaker 2
In.

00;31;25;09 - 00;31;29;02
Speaker 3
Especially writing disability. I don't feel like we like.

00;31;29;11 - 00;31;30;14
Speaker 2
The people who love.

00;31;30;14 - 00;31;36;04
Speaker 3
It and get it like they are the best humans in the world. And I don't want to sound like, you know, more people.

00;31;36;04 - 00;31;37;10
Speaker 2
Should read disabled books or.

00;31;37;10 - 00;31;41;17
Speaker 3
More people should read my books when obviously they should. But you know, like that's a joke.

00;31;43;09 - 00;31;45;29
Speaker 2
You know, but it's there's not as much.

00;31;47;00 - 00;32;12;09
Speaker 3
Hype around like the same idea of like, if you want to read diversely, here are some like really great disabled books, right? Like that is a conversation that like is really hard to have because again, the world is on fire and everyone is on fire and we're all just trying to do the best we can, but it does ultimately impact what I choose to write next.

00;32;12;09 - 00;32;28;29
Speaker 3
And that has also been a really big emotional conversation with myself about choosing to step away from like this place that I have I feel so passionately about because I want to have a career. And so like, you know.

00;32;29;10 - 00;32;31;01
Speaker 2
All of the things can be true at once.

00;32;31;19 - 00;32;34;18
Speaker 1
I don't know that I've ever asked how you ended up losing your agent.

00;32;34;28 - 00;32;37;04
Speaker 2
So here's the thing. When you sign.

00;32;37;04 - 00;32;54;24
Speaker 3
With an agent, they're all kinds of different things to consider. And I always try to pitch it as like, you have to make a choice that is right for you and what you want to do. You can talk about signing with like a boutique agency. You can talk about signing with like a midsize agency, and you can talk about signing with like one of the big talent agencies.

00;32;54;24 - 00;33;12;17
Speaker 3
So like a UTA or CAA, a WME kind of a thing. And all of them have pluses and minuses. And it's literally, what do you want to live like? What do you want and what aligns with what you want? I for a lot of reasons, chose to go with CAA, which is where my agent was.

00;33;12;29 - 00;33;14;09
Speaker 2
The hard part.

00;33;14;21 - 00;33;36;10
Speaker 3
About signing with a massive like there are a lot of pluses. There's, you know, an entire accounting department. There's an entire group of lawyers who are fighting on my contract with the publishers, you know, like they're there's so many good things about it. But what it also can mean is that they go through layoffs. And if your agent isn't.

00;33;38;05 - 00;33;38;10
Speaker 2
You.

00;33;38;10 - 00;33;48;12
Speaker 3
Know, for whatever reason, making a cut, you can suddenly find yourself without an agent. And that's what happened they went through a round of layoffs.

00;33;49;29 - 00;33;51;04
Speaker 2
And and.

00;33;51;16 - 00;34;00;23
Speaker 3
That that was my agent and I. And she decided to leave publishing and otherwise I probably would have followed her wherever she wanted me to go.

00;34;02;15 - 00;34;03;12
Speaker 2
Over a cliff.

00;34;04;16 - 00;34;09;10
Speaker 3
And that was two weeks after the launch of Ellie. So it was.

00;34;10;25 - 00;34;12;02
Speaker 2
Obviously in great.

00;34;12;02 - 00;34;13;01
Speaker 3
Emotional state.

00;34;13;19 - 00;34;14;02
Speaker 2
I had.

00;34;14;09 - 00;34;17;17
Speaker 3
Ellie two weeks agent fired two weeks draft to.

00;34;18;09 - 00;34;26;20
Speaker 2
Edit do. Yeah, it was what I say. It was the spring. I was like, oof, it was a boring.

00;34;27;14 - 00;34;30;14
Speaker 1
So I hope this spring goes better for you with that.

00;34;30;14 - 00;34;33;12
Speaker 2
So your lips to the universe's ears.

00;34;33;25 - 00;34;35;23
Speaker 1
What can you tell us about what you're writing next?

00;34;35;26 - 00;34;45;29
Speaker 3
It is, as I like to say, my career, some careers, they're like, we want you to write the same thing over and over and over again until you die, you know, until you like finally like.

00;34;45;29 - 00;34;54;15
Speaker 2
I would like to do something new now. And my career has been a pivot to a pivot to a pivot, which is fine. All careers are good careers.

00;34;55;15 - 00;34;57;24
Speaker 3
And so it is fantasy.

00;34;58;09 - 00;35;02;13
Speaker 2
It is, I think, going to be highly romantic.

00;35;04;24 - 00;35;29;22
Speaker 3
It is a riff. I like to say I'm Beauty and the Beast, which is not a fairy tale. I thought I would riff on first, but that's OK. I'm and I'm really excited. I, I, my friends have like to say several of my author friends we like started our writing journeys and way fantasy and then we like switched into this, like, contemporary setting.

00;35;30;08 - 00;35;32;15
Speaker 3
And now I feel like I'm, like, hard. We like.

00;35;32;22 - 00;35;33;28
Speaker 2
Doing a U-turn.

00;35;34;10 - 00;35;35;22
Speaker 3
And my friends like to say, I.

00;35;35;22 - 00;35;46;12
Speaker 2
Don't know, graduate, and we were meant to be here. You this was a detour for you, like, can do with a detour. You're great, but, like, you're back headed in the right direction to where you want to go.

00;35;47;16 - 00;36;00;18
Speaker 3
So I'm having a lot of fun pulling from a lot of places that I, like, traveled and in like my teenage years. And just like, I don't know, I can tell you be careful what you wish for.

00;36;00;24 - 00;36;07;15
Speaker 2
Don't don't as with everything as with fate, fate is not always good. Wishes are not always kind.

00;36;07;26 - 00;36;11;20
Speaker 1
So what have you learned about writing from reading books for Reese's Book Club?

00;36;11;28 - 00;36;13;19
Speaker 2
I just learned so much.

00;36;13;19 - 00;36;16;27
Speaker 3
One, everything is always dependent upon your reader.

00;36;17;06 - 00;36;19;21
Speaker 2
Which I should know because I've been a reader forever.

00;36;22;07 - 00;36;46;04
Speaker 3
I think voice time, talents, I think every book has something to share with you. And when something is really, really good be like often I'll tell people, like when you're starting out writing, like the books you don't like you, it's very easy for you to start to articulate what doesn't work in this book. The plot didn't work. The plot and the emotional arc were not tied closely enough.

00;36;46;04 - 00;37;16;21
Speaker 3
Like the characters didn't have their own language. Like, you know, it's very easy to sort of pick apart a book that you didn't enjoy. I think the next level up from that is how to how to pick apart a book that you did enjoy and what made it really, really good and what made it work for you, you know, and being able to do that level of thinking on about books on the daily has really sort of made me think about like, how do I take those lessons and put it to my own writing?

00;37;16;21 - 00;37;39;12
Speaker 3
How do I like how did that scene work? Like, how did it pull me in emotionally? How did they, like string together the scenes? You know, I think flow is really important to a book. So like, how how does how do they move through scenes? How do they inject just a little bit of emotion into every scene? So I think that has been really impactful.

00;37;39;25 - 00;38;05;18
Speaker 3
Also, I think it's just helpful that it like keeps me reading across genres. Like I, I personally love I mean, you can see sort of with my shelves back here, like obviously I'm a huge fantasy girl early in my off hours. Like I love a romance novel, I love a fantasy book, but like book club makes me read out like general fiction, nonfiction memoir.

00;38;05;18 - 00;38;28;11
Speaker 3
I like it. It exposes me to all of these other sort of decent plans within writing that I think are also really, really helpful. Like it makes you a more well-rounded storytelling because the pool that like I mean, as we like to talk about like there's like the Zeit guys of like, this is the invisible thing that's sort of like all writers somehow are like pulling from.

00;38;28;19 - 00;38;47;16
Speaker 3
That's why you sometimes have books that come out. They're like, that's like the same thing. How did that happen? And they may not know each other or whatever. And that's like, that's not like the zeitgeist at work, you know, and so like when you're pulling from things and you're sort of interacting with culture, I'm interacting with this, like, huge.

00;38;47;16 - 00;38;48;09
Speaker 2
Swath.

00;38;48;20 - 00;39;22;11
Speaker 3
Of a book's at large of like, it's not just pulling this like five books from fantasy or, you know, whatever. I'm like looking at, like, here is this highly literary thriller or here is this like nonfiction memoir from like, you know, a part of the world that I've never experienced before. So and and so I think that to me is really what helps me be a well-rounded writer because it forces me into these different pockets and exposes me to like the best of those pockets.

00;39;22;20 - 00;39;26;19
Speaker 1
The last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about?

00;39;26;22 - 00;39;27;08
Speaker 2
Oh, my.

00;39;27;08 - 00;39;32;07
Speaker 3
Gosh. Hold on. I have to, like, check my list to see what I can talk about.

00;39;33;13 - 00;39;34;23
Speaker 2
Because there are a lot of books that I'm.

00;39;35;05 - 00;39;38;02
Speaker 3
Really hyped about, but there are only some books that I can actually.

00;39;38;12 - 00;39;39;00
Speaker 2
Talk about.

00;39;39;19 - 00;39;44;16
Speaker 1
This is the struggle of asking you this question. And there's always something you can't talk about.

00;39;44;26 - 00;39;48;16
Speaker 2
There's always something I can't talk about, but there's always something.

00;39;48;16 - 00;40;08;04
Speaker 3
I'm like, Oh, yes, I'm really hyped about behooved, which I, I'm like, Still the Miller, but it's by Stevenson. It comes out this summer. Chronic Illness Rap fantasy. She accidentally on like her wedding night turns her husband into a horse Chaos ensues.

00;40;09;23 - 00;40;11;00
Speaker 2
I loved that.

00;40;12;17 - 00;40;32;03
Speaker 3
I'm really looking forward to finishing I'm a Deuce, which is the new eye on a gray. I started that. That has been wonderful. I'm like trying to be like, Oh, Daddy. Issues kicked gold back this fall. Gold or gold. I will read whatever. If that woman wants to write a grocery list, I'll read it. I'll be like, yeah, take my money.

00;40;32;08 - 00;40;47;09
Speaker 3
Take my money in the veins of the drowning bike. Kaylee Cassidy comes out also this summer, like new bar for me and romantic. See really interesting. Meth on a riff on Sirens.

00;40;48;11 - 00;40;48;19
Speaker 2
Was.

00;40;49;09 - 00;40;51;08
Speaker 3
Absolutely fantastic. Give me 14 of them.

00;40;54;23 - 00;41;01;09
Speaker 3
Yeah. So like those I think those are the ones that are like coming up that I'm really just like, yes, please.

00;41;01;09 - 00;41;02;25
Speaker 2
That's more all.

00;41;02;25 - 00;41;05;28
Speaker 1
These love your little sneak peeks into the publishing world.

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;07;05
Speaker 3
You know.

00;41;07;06 - 00;41;19;25
Speaker 2
Because you know, like something so fancy like it's fancy until you realize that they're like pitching you 20, 26 and you're like, I we are in Q1 of 20, 25. Do not talk to me about next year.

00;41;20;07 - 00;41;26;01
Speaker 1
I feel bad about this summer's books like Whoa Coney Island. We're going to get there April and May 1st.

00;41;26;12 - 00;41;28;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing that like I.

00;41;28;13 - 00;41;29;12
Speaker 3
Could say this as an April.

00;41;29;12 - 00;41;31;21
Speaker 2
Person, it's like that weird.

00;41;31;21 - 00;41;34;17
Speaker 3
Time, like nobody really knows. It's like, it's like the.

00;41;34;17 - 00;41;36;18
Speaker 2
Post spring break book.

00;41;37;06 - 00;41;45;13
Speaker 3
But, like, it's not time for summer yet. So it feels like all of the books and like April as an April book, I say that we're just feathered fishes. We just.

00;41;45;21 - 00;41;46;17
Speaker 2
We kind of belong.

00;41;46;17 - 00;41;48;01
Speaker 3
Everywhere and nowhere.

00;41;48;12 - 00;41;54;29
Speaker 1
Which goes back to your book about belonging is what you make it look at. You just look at me full circle.

00;41;55;01 - 00;42;01;27
Speaker 2
Full circle. We we meant that is exactly how we meant to end. But that was planned.

00;42;03;00 - 00;42;27;14
Speaker 1
Oh, I love you so much. Thank you so much for taking time to talk to literary hype. Always thanks again to Gretchen for taking time out of your day to film this conversation, not once, but twice, because we actually filmed this at Emerald City Comic-Con. Well, we were both panelists, however, the crowd was a little bit too loud and the people were a little bit too rowdy and just get involved, so it didn't work out.

00;42;27;14 - 00;42;43;13
Speaker 1
So we did it again. And I'm so glad we did because Gretchen is an absolute delight if you want to get a hold of all the stars online or her previous book, Allie Hitchcock, it's totally normal. The links to do so are down in the show notes for you. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast.

00;42;43;13 - 00;42;47;29
Speaker 1
Give us some stars and share it with a friend. Thanks for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.