68. MARIE BENEDICT: Exploring women's stories in history with The Queens of Crime

Marie Benedict describes her books as excavating women's stories from history and I love that descripton so much! We're talking all about her newest books, The Queens of Crime, which follows Dorothy Sayers, Agatha Christie, and other crime fiction writers of that time as they investigate a real woman's murder.

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Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;19;23
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie New Literary Hype Woman. Today's author conversation features an icon of the historical fiction genre, especially for books based on real people, real women, because she loves to excavate real women from history and tell us their stories, especially ones that have made a massive impact that we might not know about.

00;00;20;04 - 00;00;49;03
Speaker 1
So this author is Marie Benedict, and her most recent book is The Queens of Crime. This book is like a little bit mystery and involved because, you know, when you're writing a book about a bunch of mystery writers, you might veer off into a little bit of mystery. So this book features Dorothy Sayers and Agatha Christie, among several other very famous female writers in the golden era of crime fiction.

00;00;49;15 - 00;00;57;10
Speaker 1
So without any further ado, because I don't want to spoil all the things Marie has said because she's so much fun. So here's my conversation with Marie Benedict.

00;01;02;16 - 00;01;03;22
Speaker 2
Welcome to Literary Hype.

00;01;03;22 - 00;01;07;17
Speaker 1
It's so exciting to get to talk to you today about your brand new book, Queens of Crime.

00;01;07;21 - 00;01;09;05
Speaker 3
I'm so excited to be here.

00;01;09;07 - 00;01;14;10
Speaker 1
So for anybody who hasn't seen this book already online or in their bookstores, tell us what it's about.

00;01;14;10 - 00;01;44;00
Speaker 3
So the Queens of Crime is about the five, in my opinion, greatest female mystery writers of the Golden Age think Agatha Christie, one of her best friends, Dorothy Sayers, and three other incredible women. And in the course of these books, these women start out as colleagues become friends and then become detectives as they search for justice on behalf of a poor young English girl and secure the answer to her murder.

00;01;44;07 - 00;01;48;15
Speaker 1
And this is based on a true ish story. So parts of this are true?

00;01;48;15 - 00;02;12;20
Speaker 3
Very much so. So Dorothy Sayers, who's actually the main character in the story, she actually investigated a murder. So her husband was a journalist and there was this hugely covered story of this young English nurse who went first missing in these crazy circumstances and then eventually her body was unfortunately found. And it was really like a paparazzi event.

00;02;12;20 - 00;02;34;06
Speaker 3
And her husband was a crime journalist and he was asked to cover the story and Dorothy had this idea that they should do companion pieces. He would cover it as a crime journalist and she would cover it as a crime fiction writer. And actually, his editor loved it. And the two of them went off to Bil'in, which is this coastal French town where the murder happened.

00;02;34;12 - 00;02;43;26
Speaker 3
And they join I mean, really a bevy of journalists who are there to cover and investigate the crime, and they really get swept up in it. So it really did happen.

00;02;44;02 - 00;02;49;20
Speaker 1
So how did you come across Dorothy's story? And the detective club that she created for all these writers?

00;02;50;03 - 00;03;10;09
Speaker 3
So I kind of grew up being steeped in these writers growing up. I was that voracious reader kid always had her nose in a book, and I had this incredible aunt, my aunt Teri, who was an English professor, she was a poet and she was a rebellious nun. And if you know, if you know, you know, you know, if you've met one, you know what I'm talking about.

00;03;10;21 - 00;03;28;03
Speaker 3
And it was really her job to keep me in books so in my stacks that I would have all over the house and on my nightstand. There was always an array of just really unbelievable books. Some, some were pieces of fiction that my friends had never heard of. Some more books that actually put me on the path that I'm on today.

00;03;28;12 - 00;04;01;22
Speaker 3
And scattered among those were all these classic mystery novels. So, you know, this golden age of mysteries which is the time period when this book takes place. 1920s, thirties, Great Britain. That's really the birth of this genre in many ways. And so she was giving me books by Agatha Christie, Dorothy Sayers and some of these other women. And I grew up both kind of loving this time period, but also loving the twisty puzzles, the heart of the books, and the way in which these women really threaded through actually quite serious issues.

00;04;01;28 - 00;04;16;28
Speaker 3
But in a way that was palatable for readers of the time. And I and I loved that as well. So you asked about how I came to these women. I really came by them, honestly. I've always I can't remember a time when I wasn't reading their books.

00;04;17;07 - 00;04;24;07
Speaker 1
And with that childhood connection, what would younger you think if she knew that you were writing about these women now?

00;04;24;14 - 00;04;42;04
Speaker 3
She would be screaming, like literally screaming. And to be honest, one of the saddest things is that my my aunt didn't live to see me publish my books and oh, my gosh, she would have loved I mean, she would have loved all the books because she was my aunt. But this book in particular in many ways is an homage to her.

00;04;43;00 - 00;04;59;14
Speaker 3
She's the one who really pulled me into those those writers in that time period, which I've loved. And, you know, every page of writing this book and constructing this story and doing the research that went along with it, I really thought of her and how much she would have really she would have really enjoyed it.

00;04;59;29 - 00;05;18;17
Speaker 1
And with the genre conversation. And that comes into the story a little bit of how sometimes people don't like genre and think it's less than literary fiction, right? So that does come up. It does. So talk a little bit about the importance of accepting all genres as important works of art.

00;05;18;17 - 00;05;37;22
Speaker 3
So, so crucial. Really so crucial. So I'm it's a great question and nobody's really asked me that one. It's so at the time period of this book, right? This is the birth of this detective fiction. I mean, there had been books like this before, but this was the time period when it was really coming together and those genre is really being formed.

00;05;37;22 - 00;05;58;24
Speaker 3
And Dorothy's super involved in creating this club called the Detection Club with the best and brightest mystery writers are all part of. And part of what she's trying to do is elevate the craft and kind of establish guidelines. She calls them the rules of fair play and to really help elevate the way these books are being written and delivered to the public.

00;05;59;21 - 00;06;30;06
Speaker 3
Because at the time and this is not totally gone at the time, Detective and mystery fiction was really considered lesser then. They were having trouble getting reviews and magazines and newspapers there was sort of a sense that they weren't quite what regular literature was. And Dorothy wanted to combat that view. And because a lot of these books were every bit as well, written as literature, they were tackling a lot of the same difficult issues as literature, and yet they weren't being perceived the same way.

00;06;30;16 - 00;07;01;22
Speaker 3
And I would say that that there's still some of that today, whether it's mystery and detective fiction, whether it's fantasy romanticism, whether it's historical fiction, it's in even. Well, that's an aside. But, you know, and so I really do think that some of those views linger, but I firmly believe there is a book for every person for every mood, for every interest, all of those books, all of those genres, all of those characters and types of fiction have an important place.

00;07;02;01 - 00;07;21;08
Speaker 3
And sometimes we need one type of fiction, and other times we need a different type of fiction. And they all serve really important roles. No one is better or worse than the other. And so that, I really mean, aligns with Dorothy Sayers in that view and in that perspective. And so I really appreciate her efforts kind of to tackle that head on.

00;07;21;16 - 00;07;33;12
Speaker 1
Amen. And like, so what would your advice be to someone who doesn't like a genre but wants to learn how to accept other genres as equal to what they like?

00;07;33;28 - 00;07;58;06
Speaker 3
Read one. That's what I would say, right? I mean, I think a lot of people have preconceptions about what another genre is all about. And usually that that's because they've never read it. If you've read it and you don't enjoy it, that's one thing that's different than saying, Oh, that's not for me, or I don't I don't read fantasy or I don't read romance or whatever that is without really having tasted it and experienced it for yourself.

00;07;58;15 - 00;08;05;01
Speaker 3
Something can be not for you, but you can also appreciate it for what it is and for what it means to somebody else.

00;08;05;15 - 00;08;08;07
Speaker 1
And just not be rude to other people about that.

00;08;08;11 - 00;08;11;19
Speaker 3
Please. I mean, that's ridiculous. Totally ridiculous.

00;08;11;20 - 00;08;18;24
Speaker 1
We're seeing that a lot in with romantic see, especially of a lot of male readers saying it's not real fantasy.

00;08;19;01 - 00;08;20;13
Speaker 3
Exactly. Well, and.

00;08;20;14 - 00;08;21;18
Speaker 1
I'm sorry it has dragons.

00;08;21;21 - 00;08;43;16
Speaker 3
Right? If it's got a dragon, it's fantasy, right? And who gets to make the rules, right? I mean, and again, you know, Dorothy's trying to make some rules here. In the book, but her rules are really less to say what is and isn't good and what what what type of detective or mystery fiction. It honors the reader. Right.

00;08;43;19 - 00;09;11;04
Speaker 3
What she didn't love was you have this supposedly well orchestrated story. And then in the last ten pages, some act of God or suddenly a piece of evidence appears and the book resolves in this way that doesn't honor that you should be threading through these clues and these little bits of evidence throughout. So, oh, a really engaged reader can help fashion the answer themselves, if that makes sense.

00;09;11;12 - 00;09;15;29
Speaker 1
Which she does say that in the oath. Did you write the oath or was that something found in, you know, the.

00;09;15;29 - 00;09;42;26
Speaker 3
Oath Israel and they and actually the detection cloud which Dorothy helped found found in 1930. It's still very much in existence today and they still say the oath the oath for people who don't know what the detection cloud requires is they have this very fanciful elaborate initiation ceremony where the initiates don black robes and they carry lit candelabra in a darkened room somewhere in England.

00;09;43;07 - 00;10;05;01
Speaker 3
They get to the front of the stage where the you know, the presidents of the organization or standing or waiting them and they have to put their hand on the skull. Now, I've heard tales that it's a theatrical skull. I've heard tales that it's a real skull. We don't really know. But they put their hand on it and they have to swear that they will solve their fiction without an act of God.

00;10;05;10 - 00;10;13;08
Speaker 3
Feminine intuition, mumbo jumbo, coincidence, jiggery pokery, whatever that is. And I can't remember, oh.

00;10;13;16 - 00;10;16;01
Speaker 1
Skullduggery, because those dogs are excited that that word.

00;10;16;03 - 00;10;28;17
Speaker 3
Was exactly I mean, it's so what she's looking for is that the reader is honored in the book, and that's really the most important thing to her. So and I love that. I love it.

00;10;28;28 - 00;10;49;00
Speaker 1
So you just mentioned women's intuition as a part of the things they cannot use, but that is something they do rely heavily on for this mystery. They do. And there's a line about like a woman's fate is sometimes so complex that it takes a woman to solve it. Yeah. So talk a little bit about crafting the mystery and how these women are the only ones who can really solve it.

00;10;49;01 - 00;11;07;21
Speaker 3
Right. So as we talked about a little bit, the murder at the core of this book was a very real one. You know, it's one that Dorothy and her husband investigated. It was one that I don't want to say whether it was ever solved or not, but it was one that was the subject of hundreds, if not thousands of newspaper articles.

00;11;07;26 - 00;11;28;12
Speaker 3
They were crucial to my research. I mean, the way in which because she disappeared in the fall and her body was found into the spring. And so you really have two huge tranches of of coverage of the story, an investigation into what happened to her. And the circumstances were were really they really did seem sort seem torn from the pages of these women's books.

00;11;28;22 - 00;11;49;03
Speaker 3
I mean, this young nurse stepped into a restroom that had an entrance that also served as an exit you know, one way in and out, a bathroom that had several stalls, but no other doors, windows, fence or anything. Her friend waited for her outside and she never came out. She like vanished into thin air. So you can imagine the crazy amount of coverage.

00;11;49;29 - 00;12;21;20
Speaker 3
And it occurred to me, as I said, not just Dorothy out, but her four friends to investigate this, that every other person who's looked in to the murder of this young this poor young woman has been a man, whether it's a police officer or some member of the government or all these male reporters. Right. And so I started to you know, I've read and reread these these women's books over and over and looked at the way they conducted their investigations, look at what they had their their detectives do.

00;12;22;00 - 00;12;44;19
Speaker 3
And then, you know, having studied them their letters, their autobiography, biographies, I started to wonder, like, what would they have done? And I think what they would have done as what I do in the book, which is approach it from a different angle instead of, you know, attacking the scene, let's gently enter a life in the day of these young women and to every three trace their steps.

00;12;45;03 - 00;13;18;13
Speaker 3
What did Mae and Celia do on the day she disappeared? So they visit all the shops, all the sites, all the cafes and the candy stores. They talk to the women of the loan, the women that Mae and Celia would have encountered and would have chatted with, and all these women that the authorities really in a report actually kind of ignored or asked only very cursory questions of, you know, reflecting a view of the day that women weren't quite as observant or privy to, you know, the kinds of evidence that would help crack the case.

00;13;18;23 - 00;13;45;12
Speaker 3
And of course, it's in those conversations that the women start to start to get some significant clues. And I thought that was a really, you know, kind of goes back to what you said. Sometimes a woman's situation is so complex and difficult that only another woman can handle it. And I would argue that's different than feminine intuition. What I would say is that it's it's insight into the feminine mindset.

00;13;45;13 - 00;14;04;21
Speaker 3
Right. And also valuing women and women's experiences. You know, and that's a big theme in this book. And it was also a big theme in Dorothy's books is the way women are perceived in society. In society, it's it's a thread you see again and again in her novels. And the other woman's novels as well, although sometimes it's well hidden.

00;14;05;17 - 00;14;09;05
Speaker 3
And it actually turns out to be a really pivotal point in the book as well.

00;14;09;12 - 00;14;23;24
Speaker 1
Especially the conversation about surplus women and being post war and not having as many men around and all these women. Right. So they were devalued just because they were women, but now they didn't have the husbands. Exactly. To make them worth something in the society.

00;14;23;24 - 00;14;47;16
Speaker 3
Well, and that actually is a really pivotal point in the book because at some point and I don't want to give too much away, but in some point in the story, the authorities decide that they don't want to really investigate anymore. And instead they kind of latch on to very easy resolutions to the murder that mostly hinge on preconceptions about women and their worth.

00;14;47;28 - 00;15;11;15
Speaker 3
And one of those preconceptions is that May Daniels is what they called a surplus woman. A surplus woman was a single working woman kind of in this post war one time period. And society told women that they should be in the home, married, taking care of their husbands and their families. And so if you were a single working woman that was left, that was definitely lesser than right.

00;15;11;28 - 00;15;34;13
Speaker 3
And it didn't matter that there were fewer men to marry because so many men were killed in World War One and the population decreased overall. It didn't matter if you had a choice or didn't have a choice to marry. This negative preconception was kind of attached to these women, and it gave the authorities another excuse for not giving this murder investigation.

00;15;34;13 - 00;15;40;02
Speaker 3
They're all in kind of walking away from it, but the queens of crime work and let that happen anyway.

00;15;40;09 - 00;15;42;12
Speaker 1
Thankfully, absolutely. Yeah, I would say.

00;15;42;21 - 00;15;43;04
Speaker 3
Never.

00;15;43;06 - 00;15;50;25
Speaker 1
Never, never. So what was it like for you as a historical fiction writer to write something where mystery is so key to the plot?

00;15;50;27 - 00;16;11;25
Speaker 3
It was different, you know, I mean, in many ways it still is. Like my other novels, I mean, we have these crucial women, one in particular, Dorothy Sayers, who's kind of at the core of the book. And we're exploring their lives, their legacies. I mean, that the this type of book that they crafted really lives on. And I would say is even having like a resurgence today.

00;16;12;23 - 00;16;37;13
Speaker 3
And it's fascinating to watch how that happened. But because I decided that the best way to kind of explore their stories would be to thread through that historical fiction with elements of mystery. It was a fun departure for me. You know, it's not. So I, I love these these women and their stories. And that was a little bit daunting to try and write a murder mystery, but it was also super fun.

00;16;37;19 - 00;16;38;12
Speaker 3
It really was.

00;16;38;24 - 00;16;42;06
Speaker 1
What's the wildest detail you came across in your research for this book?

00;16;42;06 - 00;17;10;12
Speaker 3
Oh, that's a good question. The wildest detail. I mean, there were definitely some crazy theories about what happened to her. I will say, however, spending a lot of time with these newspaper articles, I learned so much that wasn't overtly shocking as kind of covertly disturbing. So one little fact is that you kept on seeing, like, sometimes I have my PowerPoint with me and you can see some of the articles.

00;17;10;18 - 00;17;27;14
Speaker 3
They always love to show this one picture of me. Danielle's with her bobbed haircut, and they always mention in these newspaper articles how she had about hairstyle. And I just thought, you know, that's sort of just referencing the style of the day, because when I think about the twenties and thirties, I think about the cute Bob haircut, right?

00;17;27;14 - 00;17;54;23
Speaker 3
It was the beginning of that style. And, well, actually, I learned that's code for something else. Having a bobbed haircut means that you have a modern hairstyle and you're not embracing like a more traditional girl would have a longer hair. And if you have a modern hairdo, you might also not be embracing traditional values. And if you're modern, you might also you might be loose.

00;17;55;13 - 00;18;21;01
Speaker 3
And if you're loose, then maybe you brought this whole terrible situation on yourself. And that all kind of leads the authorities not to investigate to the fullest. And so that was something that was surprising because on first reading of these articles and seeing all these pictures, I didn't see it. I had to I had to do some more investigation and understand what all this reference to her hairstyle really meant.

00;18;21;01 - 00;18;23;25
Speaker 3
It was like a code. So that was surprising for me.

00;18;24;00 - 00;18;28;28
Speaker 1
Who knew that there was so much little nuance into just how they described a haircut?

00;18;29;03 - 00;18;34;27
Speaker 3
Right. I'm like, gosh, they really do show this one picture over and over. And there was a reason for that.

00;18;35;10 - 00;18;37;28
Speaker 1
Good to know things you to keep in mind. Exactly.

00;18;38;10 - 00;18;52;13
Speaker 3
But a couple of surprising, fun facts about Dorothy Sayers kind of show them. Absolutely. Two things I love. First of all, she was one of the very first women to get a degree from Oxford OK? Women could go to Oxford prior to this, but you couldn't get a degree.

00;18;53;02 - 00;18;53;21
Speaker 1
Makes no sense.

00;18;53;22 - 00;19;16;10
Speaker 3
Useful, right? The second thing I love about her is before she became a full time mystery writer, she was actually an advertising executive and one of her biggest clients was Guinness Beer. And she created so many Guinness beer slogans and logos that are still in use today. My goodness, my Guinness. Guinness is good for you. Those are all Dorothy Sayers, and I just love that.

00;19;16;17 - 00;19;19;16
Speaker 3
Well, look at her go. I know she's multitalented.

00;19;20;01 - 00;19;32;19
Speaker 1
We'll talk about multitalented. This book also has an audio book where you have the narrator is from Bridgeton Garnier. Talk about that and how that came about and what it's like. Oh, my.

00;19;32;19 - 00;19;51;29
Speaker 3
Gosh. I mean, that was like a talk about a fan growing moment. Audio is done in a sort of a separate way. I mean, the book is finished and then you work separately with the audio producers and they're just fabulous. You know, it's really in some ways it's the same material, but a different art form. You know, and the the notion of finding that perfect narrator is one that I've experienced before.

00;19;51;29 - 00;20;15;06
Speaker 3
I've been lucky that I've had wonderful narrators for all my audiobooks, but my audio producer really had Bessy in mind from the start. She's like, there's this wonderful actress who who does not a lot, but she does an occasional audio book and I just think she'd be perfect. And so she gave me one of her previous reads, and I knew who she was, of course, as soon as I saw it.

00;20;15;06 - 00;20;32;18
Speaker 3
And then when I heard her, because when you're watching someone, you're not as tuned into the quality of their voice. As soon as I heard her, I said, Oh, that's Dorothy. But she has to also has to become all these other characters, too. And the range of accents she has to be able to do. I mean, the five queens of crime.

00;20;32;23 - 00;20;52;03
Speaker 3
Yes, there are three British women, but they come from their different ages. They come from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Then we have a Hungarian aristocrat in exile. She does an amazing job with that accent. And we have a New Zealander Neo Marsh, and she just like gets it. She's so good. And I was just that's just been a real thrill.

00;20;52;07 - 00;20;52;27
Speaker 3
Just a real thrill.

00;20;53;10 - 00;20;58;25
Speaker 1
And he did an article for Audible about audio books. What is it that you love about books?

00;20;59;10 - 00;21;18;27
Speaker 3
But I have a problem like just like we were talking earlier about your book book problem. Like I have an audio book problem. Like I have several going at any given time. I crank through them like you wouldn't believe because you get so much more reading done when you're also, you know, folding your laundry and listening to a book.

00;21;18;27 - 00;21;39;12
Speaker 3
It just I can go through so many audio books, so I do have a little bit of a problem with it. And I pared down my reads to find things that I thought were very much in keeping with them. I made some recommendations and one I just want to flag. There's they took audible did they took actually Agatha Christie's very first novel, The Mysterious Affair.

00;21;39;12 - 00;21;49;22
Speaker 3
It's sales. And they got like an all star cast to narrate it. And they use sound effects. I mean, it's just it's fantastic. And I it's it's really like next level stuff.

00;21;50;05 - 00;21;57;05
Speaker 1
And I've really been cranking out so much stuff that's like old school radio program and that's exactly what I would describe it as. It's, it's, it has a quality.

00;21;57;05 - 00;22;18;18
Speaker 3
To it that you think of those old school radio programs. So what I would say is in doing an audible original you definitely have to be more cognizant of including more dialog things that are clearly described, like being very aware that it's not just an internal experience, it's also has to be an audible experience and it's a fun challenge.

00;22;18;18 - 00;22;25;14
Speaker 3
I really enjoy that. I did a I did I did a couple audible originals, including a co-written one with Kate Quinn, which was really fun too.

00;22;25;17 - 00;22;26;20
Speaker 1
What's coming next for you?

00;22;26;24 - 00;22;48;11
Speaker 3
Oh, I have a well, my next solo book comes out about a year from now, and it's called Daughter of Egypt and it's the story of Lady Evelyn Herbert, daughter of Lord Carnarvon, who actually owned Highclere Castle, which is the model for Downton Abbey. And I went, Oh, because Bessie Carter's father played Carson on Downton Abbey.

00;22;49;01 - 00;22;50;01
Speaker 1
Just tossing it out there.

00;22;50;13 - 00;23;15;21
Speaker 3
Small world. Anyway, he was among many things. Lord Carnarvon was an archeologist and part of the year. Every year, Howard Carter, who was a professional archeologist, live with their family, and Lady Evelyn Herbert was you know, I don't want to say an amateur archeologist, but she was a trained archeologist. And once World War Two comes to an end and they can resume excavations in Egypt and colonial Egypt, they head out.

00;23;15;21 - 00;23;43;28
Speaker 3
And their goal is actually to find the tomb of the only female Pharaoh Hatshepsut, who had one of the most successful reigns. But at the end, right after she died, they literally chiseled any reference to her out of their history from tombs, monuments, temples, oils, papyrus, you name it. And when they went to go find Hatshepsut, they actually ended up finding one of the most famous archeological discoveries of all time, which is tune Common King Tut.

00;23;45;04 - 00;24;01;23
Speaker 3
But threaded through the story is actually the story of Hatshepsut as well. My, you know, my vision of what happened to achieve. So so it's been a writing. Her story has been a longstanding fascination for me. So it was really wonderful to find the right entry point to that story.

00;24;02;01 - 00;24;04;18
Speaker 1
And since this is literary hype, what books are you hyped about right now?

00;24;04;28 - 00;24;22;14
Speaker 3
Oh, my gosh. So many things I couldn't even begin to list. I have mysteries going, I have dystopia going. I have historical fiction going, I have literature. I put that in quotes going at all times in all forms. So I say read whatever tickles your fancy awesome.

00;24;22;14 - 00;24;25;09
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much. Hanging out with literary aid. Thank you.

00;24;28;00 - 00;24;54;11
Speaker 1
Thanks again to Marie for hanging out with me before her tour stop in St Louis promoting the Queens of Crime. And thanks to the Saint Louis County Library for letting me fill this interview right up until the last night before she went on stage. Much appreciated. I'm sorry I stress you out. If you're interested in checking out the queens of crime for yourself, which I recommend you do, or any of Barry's other books and they are fantastic links to this are going to be down in the show notes for you if you enjoyed this conversation.

00;24;54;11 - 00;25;10;15
Speaker 1
Don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast. Give us some stars, write a little review, say nice things like If you could just say good soup, I don't care. Just say something nice in the in the reviews and we'll be best friends forever. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.