84. JOHN SCALZI: writing humor in sci-fi, meeting celebrity fans, and DJing for nerds

I still don't know how I convinced John Scalzi to chat with me while we were at C2E2 earlier this year, but it happened and he's a hoot. We're talking all about his signature humor in sci-fi books, which celebrities are fans of his, and his work as a DJ for nerds. He's a Hugo Award-winning author full of great things to say, including his take on alpha males, so join us for a fun conversation on LiteraryHype Podcast.

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When the Moon Hits Your Eye
Starter Villain
Old Man's War (series)
The Shattering Peace
Redshirts

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When the Moon Hits Your Eye
Starter Villain
Old Man's War
The Shattering Peace
Redshirts

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;02;13
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. You love it, too. Let's nerd out together.

00;00;02;14 - 00;00;03;00
Speaker 2
We're best friends.

00;00;03;01 - 00;00;04;27
Speaker 1
We're blessed. Oh, we're totally best friends.

00;00;05;08 - 00;00;24;16
Speaker 3
Hi, and welcome to Literary Hype podcast. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman. And today, we have an icon on the show. I really don't know how I landed this one. It's magic. It's pure magic at this point. John Scalzi is the author of so many very popular and beloved sci fi books. And his new one is called When the Moon Hits You.

00;00;24;16 - 00;00;40;03
Speaker 3
I would. Yes, that is cheese. And the whole premise of this book is that the moon is turned cheese so you know, you're in for a good time with that's what this guy is writing. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with John Scalzi from C2e2 in Chicago.

00;00;45;09 - 00;00;47;26
Speaker 4
Cool up to literary types. It's so exciting to have you on.

00;00;48;07 - 00;01;08;14
Speaker 1
Your brand new book, When the Moon Hit Zero. I thank you. It's good to be here at C2e2. C2e2 is a good time. It is a good time. I've been doing a lot of conventions recently. I just did a bookstore, and so I was here. I was awesome, totally accessible. But I am basically everywhere across the country.

00;01;08;20 - 00;01;13;26
Speaker 4
So we learned a lot about you here at first and.

00;01;13;26 - 00;01;24;28
Speaker 2
Foremost, we got to talk about you're a deejay. Yeah. And he's actually learned the story, his smile when he flipped it back to you right so talk a little bit about how you got into digital.

00;01;25;09 - 00;01;52;02
Speaker 1
So so here's the thing, which is I used to be a music critic, and so I do write ups, done concerts, stuff. In fact, here in Chicago, way back when and we're talking like the nineties. I used to write for New City magazine and for the Sun-Times doing music stuff. And so many years later, I was at a convention where I was guest of honor and they had a DJ doing an image dance.

00;01;52;02 - 00;02;10;10
Speaker 1
And the thing was that he was 19 years old. So he hadn't been on my, you know, in the eighties. And so he was playing with someone who was from the eighties, knows all the off brand names, right? Like he was just like, Oh, this was a hit at one time, I'll put that on. And I was just sitting there because I like to dance.

00;02;10;10 - 00;02;27;08
Speaker 1
I took two years and just modern. You wouldn't know it by looking at me, but and that's how I met my wife. She saw me dancing was like, that man, that man is the man I want to, I've always really enjoyed dancing and I was not having of that dance. And so I was very grumpy. It's like, what's wrong with it?

00;02;27;08 - 00;02;28;29
Speaker 1
I, I can do a better job being.

00;02;28;29 - 00;02;36;29
Speaker 4
A deejay than this guy. And they're like, OK, come back next year and do it. I'm like, well, I will show you. And I came back the next year and I deejay.

00;02;37;07 - 00;02;57;03
Speaker 1
And the person was spectacular time because I was actually alive for the eight years in his native stance. And then ever since then, science fiction conventions and other sort of nerdy places, I've been like deejay for us. And I think like I said at the panel, I think there's two reasons. One, because I'm going to be there anyway.

00;02;57;26 - 00;03;01;01
Speaker 1
And so they think it's kind of fun. And the other thing is there's something.

00;03;01;01 - 00;03;05;28
Speaker 4
Really weird and wacky about having a Hugo winning.

00;03;06;23 - 00;03;30;05
Speaker 1
Deejay. Like the two don't really seem to go together hilarious. Coming. It is a hilarious combination, but I do quite a lot of gigs. I did one of the joking tunes where I did a nerd prom, so, you know, I played a lot of songs there in Capricorn, which is another convention here in Chicago. I was the deejay and so yeah, I just kind of fell into it and really enjoy it.

00;03;30;05 - 00;03;36;25
Speaker 1
And the good news is, is that no matter where I am, I always have music to dance to at my school.

00;03;36;26 - 00;03;39;25
Speaker 2
A lot of conventions. What are your favorite fandoms.

00;03;40;15 - 00;03;46;23
Speaker 1
It's hard to say. I mean, I have I mean, general science fiction fantasy and fandom is just.

00;03;46;29 - 00;03;53;06
Speaker 4
You know, wide and and kind of wild and I came into it from from.

00;03;53;06 - 00;04;12;15
Speaker 1
The outside because I used to be a journalist, so I get to do conventions. My wife is definitely not a nurse. I went to a convention before I ever did. She went to a a X-Files convention back in the 1990s. So my very first convention wasn't until I actually told Gore and I was like, well.

00;04;12;15 - 00;04;18;04
Speaker 4
I need to go to a convention and find out who my people are. And it was very.

00;04;18;04 - 00;04;42;24
Speaker 1
Interesting and for someone who has always been on kind of not knowing anything about it was very eye opening. And so it's hard for me to really sort of differentiate the fandoms because I don't feel like I kind of grew up with them. And I think that the thing is, is that all of the fans, whether you like, you know, whether you're Brownshirts or, you know, I'm not a volunteer coach or a Star Wars fan or a Star Trek fan or any of that sort of stuff.

00;04;43;04 - 00;05;07;04
Speaker 1
But it all comes down to yes. And not on the end of the genre. And for that particular property, I desire to really want to share that with other people and just be super tastic. And I've always said that's kind of the difference between a nerd and a hipster. Like a hipster loves something and then when it becomes popular, they're like, You weren't here from the beginning.

00;05;07;13 - 00;05;23;14
Speaker 1
Whereas in Nerd, when they love something, I was like, Oh my God, you love it too. Let's nerd out together. We're best friends and we're best all. We're totally best friends, right? And so that is something that I really love. So it's hard for me to say that one is better or I enjoy one more because I think the hallmarks of what.

00;05;23;25 - 00;05;35;28
Speaker 4
Nerd demands that enthusiasm keep more all of that is kind of universal. I read something on life that fans were partially inspired by Starship.

00;05;36;03 - 00;05;37;24
Speaker 1
Starship yes.

00;05;38;13 - 00;05;39;06
Speaker 2
And they're here.

00;05;40;01 - 00;05;57;03
Speaker 1
That Starship Trooper people. Yes. I did notice that the film people were there. Part of me is like, go see them, go say hello. But they have no idea who I am. So, you know, I'd be like, should I come up there? Like, I read a book too. And they're like, OK, good for you. All right. Thank you.

00;05;57;16 - 00;06;22;20
Speaker 1
Thank you. Here's your signature. Yeah. So you have to you know, you have to be careful. The idea that like one pocket of fame is necessarily going to translate into another pocket of fame is not always the case. Although I did have one time there was one time where I was at Carroll City Comic-Con, which is in Seattle, and I was there as a as a guest.

00;06;23;02 - 00;06;44;16
Speaker 1
And so somebody from the convention was like we have someone who wants to we have someone who wants to meet you. And I was like, OK. And they're like, OK, but you have to go up to him because he's busy signing stuff and like, OK. And so we go up to where the, you know, autographs are. And I'm led to.

00;06;45;09 - 00;06;49;07
Speaker 4
Allen to take right. And and they.

00;06;49;07 - 00;07;11;26
Speaker 1
Cut me into line. So immediately everybody lines, right? Because like, what is this guy? Why is he cutting in the line? And all and I look back to them, I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't know. And so he's, you know, he's in the moment, right? And besides the next person he looks up to me is like and I'm like, I'm John Scalzi and I'm like, you asked for me.

00;07;12;10 - 00;07;32;09
Speaker 1
You guys go. And he, like, gets up and he runs to right behind him where he's got his backpack. He unzips it. And there's this pattern of that's where he's like, I just this that this is so would you say, like, why, of course. Yes, I will. How is your convention? Model? Right. And I sign it and I do all this stuff.

00;07;32;09 - 00;07;46;19
Speaker 1
And of course, everybody's watching. I was going on here and I say, So I'll see you some other time. Cool. All right. Thank you. Onto the bus. And I walk away and it's like, you know, that thing where people walk away, an explosion happens behind them. I felt very much like.

00;07;47;03 - 00;07;49;25
Speaker 2
Did you also feel like that when Tom Hanks told the way?

00;07;51;22 - 00;08;12;14
Speaker 1
That was fun? It's ridiculous. The thing is, is that every time a movie with Tom Hanks comes out, my wife writes me about it right because he's he's a fan. He's happy fan down high. So every time he is like in a movie, she's like, look, it's your pal Tom. It's your father, Tom. And she's, you know, giving me, you know, a hard time about it.

00;08;12;14 - 00;08;24;13
Speaker 1
But but yes, he, like, knows who I am and I exist. And every once in a while, I have an email every once while that sent me an email, and I'm just like, oh, hey, you know, Tom Hanks, we're pals.

00;08;24;17 - 00;08;29;25
Speaker 2
Oh. What's it like for you to know that celebrities are fans of yours?

00;08;30;03 - 00;08;55;11
Speaker 1
It's it's weird. It's very, very weird. Like every other human. I don't necessarily always believe that celebrities are real people, you know? And I get a little bit of that, too, because as some people's very writer, they're like, you are just on this other plane. I was like, No, I assure you that I don't I need a Snickers bar right now because I'm getting hungry.

00;08;55;23 - 00;09;17;00
Speaker 1
I am a human, and it is a hangry writer. No one wants a hangry writer. I'm going to write now. But no, it is very much the same sort of thing. The recognition that no, in fact, celebrities are like normal people, except they tend to be richer and pretty. Right. But yeah, no, every once in a while you have that thing where, you know, how cool is this, Tom?

00;09;17;00 - 00;09;42;13
Speaker 1
Hanks knows I exist or I have like friends who are musicians. Like, I grew up in the eighties, so there was a band called Jazz where he has you. If you're from the UK. And that lead singer Alison Moyet was like a foundational singer for me. And we met, we chatted on social media and I got to meet her and that was like one of the few times I was genuinely starstruck.

00;09;42;23 - 00;10;01;16
Speaker 1
And her and her manager was always like, You're just going to have 5 minutes. And I'm like, I totally get this. I'm in my own little sphere. I do this all the time. I get it. I'm not going to be a problem. And then I come and meet her in person. She does. She gets me a great big night and she's like, We have to take a picture together.

00;10;01;23 - 00;10;07;11
Speaker 1
My husband and daughter are such huge fans of hers. I want them to be jealous and I'm like, Yes.

00;10;08;10 - 00;10;19;11
Speaker 2
You touched on your career as a journalist, which is something we both have in common, right? Just hang in there is beyond so what did you learn about writing fiction from your time as a journalist?

00;10;19;12 - 00;10;40;12
Speaker 1
This is actually something I tell people all the time because they think that there are two completely separate fields, but they're not one. A lot of times when you're writing fiction, what you're doing is sort of reportage, right? You are describing the scene, you are saying what is relevant to what when, where, why, all of these sorts of things, each person doing journalism and so on.

00;10;40;20 - 00;10;55;25
Speaker 1
So for me, it made it really easy because I could set the scene like I'm telling you know, making a news article. The other thing is that and this has been a real competitive advantage when you're a journalist, you have to hit your deadline.

00;10;56;06 - 00;10;56;23
Speaker 2
And there's no.

00;10;56;23 - 00;11;21;19
Speaker 1
Missing and there's no missing it. It doesn't matter if you're sick, if you're feeling bad, if you're not news, it doesn't matter. It's 3:00. Where's your article? Because if you don't get it done, there's a hole in the newspaper and it's your fault, right? And they'll fill it with AP or something like that. But ultimately, you know, that was your slot that you you did not follow the news on.

00;11;21;28 - 00;11;42;06
Speaker 1
So it didn't matter whether it was bad, whether it's good, whether it's a different, whether it was the most brilliant thing you've ever written, it has to be it. And that thing of having that relationship with deadlines has been hugely important for my career because one of the things that they don't worry about, about me is whether or not I'm going to hit the day.

00;11;42;12 - 00;12;02;05
Speaker 1
You know, they like this is when you need to have it. And I may have it in at 7 a.m. that morning, but it will be it or if it's not and like I was for the new book that I just finished writing in January, I was three weeks late, but I had a, you know, a cat with a urinary tract infection.

00;12;02;05 - 00;12;20;10
Speaker 1
And I had a relative die. So they're like, you know what? Take your time, right? So that was the thing. But hitting deadlines is actually hugely important because apparently I didn't know this. A lot of people have a hard time with their books. And I'm like, no, you have to get it in for a copy editor. The strength of that is.

00;12;20;10 - 00;12;31;19
Speaker 2
Like, definitely the war in my head has a journalist but also has a creative of like, yeah, I have to do it. I can't do anything until I have a deadline, but I want to do things, but I can't because there's no deadline.

00;12;31;20 - 00;12;49;28
Speaker 1
Right if there's not a deadline, then why am I even doing this stuff? Because I have all the time in the world until the end. And that still works. I mean, like the deadline. 80% of the work gets done near a deadline and 20% of the work takes up expense. All the rest is due tomorrow. Due tomorrow, due tomorrow.

00;12;49;28 - 00;13;18;12
Speaker 1
You don't have a choice there was one time where I, I had a book that was coming out hard that I was trying to finish and I looked at the date and it was, Oh, that book is due on the 18th of June. It is the 4th of June. So I had so I wrote an entire novel in two weeks because I was like, Oh, there's a deadline.

00;13;18;22 - 00;13;38;08
Speaker 1
And I didn't tell anybody that I had done it until the book came out. I had the New York Times bestseller list, and it got to start reading the trades because when that all happened, I was like, OK, they didn't catch me. They didn't know. Now I can say I did. This sounds so real, but.

00;13;40;09 - 00;13;41;09
Speaker 2
I feel like a little.

00;13;41;09 - 00;13;42;29
Speaker 1
Attack and then. Yes, yes.

00;13;43;08 - 00;13;48;01
Speaker 2
But that is it is so important. Like the ADHD. Yeah. And you need that time.

00;13;49;06 - 00;13;50;03
Speaker 1
You need the nuance.

00;13;50;03 - 00;13;51;16
Speaker 2
You need the incentive, you need.

00;13;51;20 - 00;14;14;02
Speaker 1
You need somebody to just say no, it actually has to be. And because if it's open ended, it will never get done because there are so many things you could do. There are video games there, social media, many books to read. I have three cats. They are endlessly entertaining. Right, exactly. But no, give me a deadline. I'm like, OK, now I can start my process because I know what my process needs to end.

00;14;14;11 - 00;14;20;26
Speaker 2
Do you feel like your process changes when you are on a tighter deadline? Or do you stick to the same kind of routine that you do?

00;14;20;28 - 00;14;27;28
Speaker 1
I mean, my process is just pull it out of my backside so that never changes. It's just how quickly I do it.

00;14;28;14 - 00;14;47;22
Speaker 2
Your books are humorous? Yes, very often. So the first time I saw you, I was when you were sitting in line at a New York comic, right. Doing the signing and you were sitting there reading it and still laughing. Yeah. So what about this book makes you feel, even after you've written it and gone through all these trenches with it?

00;14;47;23 - 00;14;53;28
Speaker 1
Well, the first thing you have to understand is that writers have a lesion. So like you turn in a book.

00;14;54;01 - 00;14;58;00
Speaker 4
And and then you immediately forget about it, right?

00;14;58;00 - 00;15;09;21
Speaker 1
Because it's just that that short term memory dump of getting everything done is gone, and your brain just kind of lights up. You get the copy of it. And when I look at the copy in the book where the specific.

00;15;09;21 - 00;15;14;19
Speaker 4
Copy editor so I don't panic, you read it again, and then.

00;15;14;29 - 00;15;19;06
Speaker 1
Later on I don't pick up I'll pick up a friend of mine and I'll like read a passage or.

00;15;19;06 - 00;15;25;12
Speaker 4
Read a chapter I like I don't know how I did that.

00;15;26;11 - 00;15;42;06
Speaker 1
I but it seems to be working. So the jokes and stuff like that, I don't want to say the jokes are brand new to me, but but it is being able to look at it with fresh eyes because your brain has been like, I don't want to think about this thing anymore. I've thought about that for six months.

00;15;42;06 - 00;16;03;16
Speaker 1
Straight purge out there, you know, out the airlock and so yeah, I will pick up stuff and I'll be like, Oh no, that is actually funny. What a clever man who wrote that. Good for him. Yeah, but there's the other aspect of it. That I am a real believer that as a writer, if I think something is fun, then there's a better chance you're going to think it's funny.

00;16;03;16 - 00;16;24;18
Speaker 1
If I write something that makes me cry then there's a better chance that it will make you cry as well. So I am very reactive to my writing. So the simple fact of the matter is, if I read something that I thought was funny as I was writing it later on, when I have the privilege of reading it with some distance, chances are I will probably still find it funny.

00;16;24;20 - 00;16;45;03
Speaker 1
It's the it's the there's that and there's that marketing term of eating your own dog food. Like you have to believe in the stuff that you do more than anybody else. And so, yeah, I will occasionally reread my stuff and it's like, well, it's here. And I'm like, Oh yeah, no, he actually knows what he's doing. I hardly believe he's me.

00;16;46;04 - 00;16;51;00
Speaker 2
So, but so for anybody who hasn't already seen this book online or in a bookstore, what's it about?

00;16;51;05 - 00;17;19;29
Speaker 1
It's The Moon Turns to Cheese. And for an entire lunar cycle the world has to deal with, and that's pretty much it. And then every chapter is a is a new day and the lunar cycle and most nearly all the chapters have different protagonists from all walks of life. And that was important for me to do because then, you know, the moon shines for us all and so I wanted to make sure that I had the point of view from people from, you know, the White House on down.

00;17;20;08 - 00;17;22;05
Speaker 2
Were you angry when you came up with this idea?

00;17;22;07 - 00;17;44;03
Speaker 1
No, I wasn't. I you know, the thing about it was so many of my books are like looking at things that are tropes. Right. And I remember being a kid and people told me, you know, the moon is made out of cheese. And I'm like, why? And so there's there are very few people who have not heard the idea of the moon being turned to cheese.

00;17;44;03 - 00;17;58;28
Speaker 1
And I'm like, OK, what if the moon does turn to cheese? How do we deal with it? And that's kind of a fun thing for me, is to take something that is basically either a trope or a joke or just something that people like.

00;17;58;29 - 00;18;03;25
Speaker 4
OK, whatever, and really dig into it and find an.

00;18;03;25 - 00;18;24;14
Speaker 1
Actual story, an actual humor or an actual pathos in it. And it's a thing that I don't think anybody else has. I don't when I told people what's like, what's the next book? I'll make the turkey cheese. And they're like, Yeah, yeah, that's you write like nobody else would do that. Nobody stupid enough to do that. But I have.

00;18;24;29 - 00;18;29;04
Speaker 1
And as a result, I mean, I'm actually really, really happy with.

00;18;29;04 - 00;18;34;20
Speaker 4
This book because I had people come up and be like.

00;18;35;09 - 00;18;37;22
Speaker 1
I was not expecting.

00;18;37;22 - 00;18;42;10
Speaker 4
To cry about, you know, turning to cheese.

00;18;42;21 - 00;18;48;03
Speaker 1
And you made me cry and I don't like you anymore. Like, yes.

00;18;49;06 - 00;18;51;04
Speaker 2
I was going to say, do you revel in.

00;18;51;04 - 00;19;08;12
Speaker 1
Making people cry I do. Oh, I do. I do wonder. You know, the thing is, is that as a writer, you want to know where there's something going to effect people. You want them to cry when you want them to cry and want them to laugh when you want them to laugh, you want to take them out of their intellectual journey.

00;19;08;19 - 00;19;19;01
Speaker 1
Even if, again, the premise is silly, it's I guess the premise is silly, but the people who have to deal with it are going to deal with an unrealistic place. And sometimes people are going to cry. That's what's.

00;19;19;15 - 00;19;21;22
Speaker 2
Really stood out with this is the humanity in.

00;19;21;22 - 00;19;23;01
Speaker 1
The inside. Yeah. Yeah.

00;19;23;11 - 00;19;32;29
Speaker 2
So how do you focus in on humanity while still balancing the science part of the science fiction and the humor and just making sure it still has a heart? Well, I mean.

00;19;32;29 - 00;19;57;09
Speaker 1
The thing is, people are people right now. And science fiction has traditionally gotten a kind of bad rap not being real good with human characters, like fantastic ideas. But the characters can be a little cardboard and I think in in the last 20 years in particular, that has been changing. We've had an influx of.

00;19;57;23 - 00;20;23;25
Speaker 4
So many new writers who are actually just really facile and really talented writers that characters are now tested just really vibrant and really, really good. And for me, that is the best you can have. The idea that if you don't have characters that care about, you have a story, their story is not.

00;20;23;26 - 00;20;33;23
Speaker 1
Interesting and it doesn't matter how people like, you know, it's still going to be a part of that sort of story. So for me, it always starts back and like I said, it's.

00;20;33;26 - 00;20;38;23
Speaker 4
Easy to take a farcical idea and, you know, try to be farcical about it.

00;20;38;26 - 00;21;03;17
Speaker 1
It's more difficult to take what is essentially a personal idea and actually apply it to people who have real lives where, you know, yes, the moon has turned to cheese, but you also have to take out the trash. Also, your dog is sick and you have to take him to the vet. You know, you still go on with your life and see how that balance, you know, as you said, taking the absurd.

00;21;03;17 - 00;21;22;09
Speaker 1
The moon has turned to cheese and the real and now because the moon is church cheese, my life has been kind of upended. And now what? How do I deal with it? The fun is in finding that balance and to to make it work. And the answer is, you just do it. And if it's not working, you took it or you're thrown out.

00;21;22;09 - 00;21;24;18
Speaker 1
You start again and.

00;21;24;18 - 00;21;28;12
Speaker 2
You find a way to make it. What do you do? Favorite perspective from this book there is.

00;21;28;12 - 00;22;02;25
Speaker 1
A chapter which is a Slack chat between a group of friends who are going to get together for there was an Eclipse party in the book, and they all started like dropping the party because the end of the world is coming, you know, sort of cheese, all that sort of stuff. And and the person who organized the party is angry and they're having that conversation and, you know, Slack Channel and discovering why he's so angry that people are not going to come to his party.

00;22;03;02 - 00;22;21;18
Speaker 1
I mean, it's always a bummer when people come in to the party. So he's like really upset and that whole thing delivered. And for Slack Channel four, that's kind of my favorite one because you get to you know, you get to have the real emotions but you also get that the real emotions in a Slack channel. And that's and that's kind of.

00;22;21;18 - 00;22;24;28
Speaker 2
But it's a very fun little interstitials with like.

00;22;24;28 - 00;22;26;04
Speaker 1
The red and yellow. Yeah.

00;22;26;04 - 00;22;26;29
Speaker 2
They're very fun.

00;22;27;17 - 00;22;40;15
Speaker 1
One. That's also where the journalism comes in again because I get a lot of fake articles, you know, from the fake New York Times, fake Washington Post Post, fake Chicago Tribune, right. Super fun, super fun. Super fun, super fun.

00;22;40;27 - 00;22;44;13
Speaker 2
So this is begs the question, what's your favorite kind of chance.

00;22;47;17 - 00;23;10;01
Speaker 1
I have recently been making a stand for a phrase type of cheese that I feel is much maligned and underappreciated. And it is American cheese. And I will tell you why. Well, first off, you know, people like well, you know, it's not really cheese. It's cheese product which is true. It's got emulsifiers in it and everything else like that.

00;23;10;01 - 00;23;44;14
Speaker 1
But look, here's the thing. American cheese, maybe it's a little bland, right? Maybe it's not your first choice. I like cheese if you're like trying to impress people. But if you have got a cheeseburger or if you've got mac and cheese and you need that sort of creamy melty mouth feel thing that you can only get from a cheese to product that is emulsified so it won't break and turn into an oily, fatty disaster when you put it on so that American cheese is your is your go to friend.

00;23;44;15 - 00;24;03;14
Speaker 1
It's not it doesn't claim to be the best cheese in the world. It just has a very specific job that it does very, very often. And when they ask, like, you know, what kind of cheese do you want? Cheeseburger. I like something that won't turn into an oily mess because cheddar turns into the thing that's pirates on Thursday.

00;24;03;14 - 00;24;41;17
Speaker 1
It just it brings it turns into turns into runny oil and weird, you know, crispy American cheese melts without complaint. It's happy to do it is happy to make your gooey experience something pleasurable. And I think that matters. And I think people don't appreciate America cheese for what it is and what it can do. So next time you hear someone trash on American cheese be like, excuse me, excuse me, sir, ma'am or whomever, I think you're wrong and there's no other cheese you want on that cheeseburger.

00;24;41;28 - 00;24;44;13
Speaker 2
Do justice and.

00;24;44;29 - 00;24;46;16
Speaker 1
Justice for Americans.

00;24;46;18 - 00;24;50;26
Speaker 2
Please that was not what I was expecting.

00;24;50;26 - 00;25;00;25
Speaker 1
No, no. Nobody does. Nobody expects American cheese. But that's my whole point is like, you know, let's look at the thing that does the thing and does it exactly how you want the thing to happen.

00;25;01;06 - 00;25;05;25
Speaker 2
But also, you would expect people would expect you to show up in a shirt that says alpha male and puffy letters.

00;25;05;25 - 00;25;20;04
Speaker 1
I mean, this is the like this is my life. This is who I am. I love this shirt because, of course, it is not written again with the reversal of expectations. And that's kind of my stock in trade as part also. It's a great shirt.

00;25;20;16 - 00;25;24;03
Speaker 2
It is so much to get one. So.

00;25;24;15 - 00;25;24;26
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;25;25;07 - 00;25;28;10
Speaker 2
When I first saw it, like I walked by your signing and it's like, oh, there it is.

00;25;28;16 - 00;25;49;19
Speaker 1
There it is. There's there it's become a kind of a famous shirt. Like I put it on and I put it on the Internet. It immediately went viral and and it was 90%. People like this is an amazing shirt and I love everything about it. And 10% was a bunch of dudes be like, Oh, no, that's not what being an alpha males about, about.

00;25;50;20 - 00;25;58;22
Speaker 1
You're just like, God bless you. Bless you, sir. I hope therapy one day will help.

00;26;00;23 - 00;26;00;29
Speaker 2
Add.

00;26;01;05 - 00;26;01;25
Speaker 1
To that.

00;26;02;25 - 00;26;07;26
Speaker 2
What has helped you maintain such a long career in the creative space.

00;26;08;10 - 00;26;46;12
Speaker 1
But actually had a lot to do with it. And people hate it when I say that. It's like, I mean, I got like people like knowing you're going to want to do it. I'm like, No, I am very good at what I do. And but I my first book came out, it came out on January 1st of 2005, and I want you to think about what that means it means that my publisher, by the way, I love and they're wonderful people, said to themselves, Let's put out a book after the largest commercial season in the year on a day where all the stores are awesome.

00;26;46;24 - 00;27;15;22
Speaker 1
Right? So let's just say the cards were not, you know, in the favor of this book when it was starting out. And yet it became a success in the way that nobody nobody was expecting. And I, I got lucky who is in the right place at the right time with the right storyline. And people just made it up and so that ever since then, the whole thing is just keep doing the thing right.

00;27;16;01 - 00;27;27;26
Speaker 1
On that basis of luck, I've been able to roll it on to other things. And there have been other times where I got lucky. Redshirts was already writing Right Starter Billy, which was a book that came out just before when the moon hit Drive an.

00;27;27;26 - 00;27;28;21
Speaker 2
Advance, and I will pick.

00;27;29;01 - 00;27;32;20
Speaker 1
That up. Barnes and Noble Pick of the Month. Such a good choice.

00;27;32;23 - 00;27;33;28
Speaker 2
Thank you so many.

00;27;33;28 - 00;27;53;05
Speaker 1
Yes, you saw me. And part of that part of the book for that was that cover, that cover with a business card in a you know, in a business oil painting I think probably sold ten to 15% more simply because people like there's a cat on that cover and I meet it.

00;27;53;13 - 00;27;57;21
Speaker 2
We literally have a table right now and that's our anchor title and it's lots of cats on the cover.

00;27;57;24 - 00;28;00;05
Speaker 1
Right. That's exactly right. And the thing is.

00;28;00;10 - 00;28;05;08
Speaker 4
If they had a different cover that things would have been that would have been different.

00;28;05;08 - 00;28;39;04
Speaker 1
I got lucky with that cover. Again, how luck is the residue of preparation, right? If you are if you had a moment when things go your way and you're able to sort of capitalize on it, then it becomes lucky as opposed to that one weird thing that happened to me. But it is I mean, there are other writers who write just as well as me who have not had the careers that I've had not because they're not doing the work, not because they didn't have the effort, not because the books aren't good, because they are, but for whatever reason, the books just didn't help.

00;28;40;00 - 00;28;59;01
Speaker 1
And so luck is a lot of luck and the acknowledgment that, yes, do put out a book a year make sure there's always something new kind of make to try to make them interested. And in my particular case, make them so that when someone goes, well, I don't really read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, so I don't know where to begin.

00;28;59;13 - 00;29;21;07
Speaker 1
Booksellers can be like, Oh, but here's old man's, oh, here's redshirts, you know, here started getting you know, it's something you can give to someone who hasn't read science fiction fantasy before and they don't feel it's so removed from there. What they ordinarily read that they feel lost and out and lost in space.

00;29;21;07 - 00;29;28;12
Speaker 2
So you talked a little bit about in school about your first advance, right? Yeah.

00;29;28;15 - 00;29;31;06
Speaker 1
And now there's 60 $500.

00;29;32;05 - 00;29;38;28
Speaker 2
Now having a multi-million dollar deal. Sure, sure. What's it like for you seeing your growth and.

00;29;39;06 - 00;30;05;20
Speaker 1
What, like, I mean, it was nice. I mean, I like being paid well for the things that I do but one of the things that was really important to me, like when I was starting off and I got that 60 $500, which is not a lot, but the thing was for me at that time, it was less about the money and more about the fact, oh, I get to have this now.

00;30;05;28 - 00;30;47;27
Speaker 1
When I started writing novels, I was already an established writer. I had been a journalist for many years. I was a fairly successful freelance writer and consultant, and I was and I had written the nonfiction books, so I had like three or four books before all that worked out, and they're all nonfiction. And so I was in a place where money was a particular concern and that again, was also, like I could say, will not be like, well, I can't live on 60 $500 and more dollars is OK, and we'll see where this goes.

00;30;47;28 - 00;31;07;23
Speaker 1
So the gist of it is I was in a very fortunate position to be like, OK, let's see where this goes. Not every writer. And it's really important to stress this and in the same fortunate position where they're like, so that the relatively paltry sum that you get as a first time novelist isn't going to be in a position to that.

00;31;08;02 - 00;31;39;01
Speaker 1
So in that I got lucky. And now what I can't say is, as my advances and things, they always kept in line to if what I was selling. So I don't feel like there's any point where tour was like giving me more money than I deserved or trying to give me less money than I should get. It's always been a pretty good relationship there, but it has been kind of weird to all of a sudden go to recognize that, no, this is my job now that I have a full time novel.

00;31;39;01 - 00;32;01;11
Speaker 1
So when that first book sale happened, I remember saying to Christine, my wife, I'm like, just so you know, you know, no one ever makes money being a novelist. You know, these are here's what the advances generally are they're usually low five figures. And maybe I will do a novel every two or three years and it will come out.

00;32;01;18 - 00;32;25;11
Speaker 1
And I might go to a convention and people will be like, Oh, yeah, you're the guy who wrote that thing. Yeah, OK. And, you know, and meanwhile, I will keep my day job of freelancing and consulting. So the fact that at a certain point I was like, no, it makes no sense to be doing anything else, but writing novels because they are paying me much more than I would get otherwise.

00;32;25;11 - 00;32;38;09
Speaker 1
It was a really weird moment for me and entirely unexpected. Like I said, I started in journalism. I assumed I would be a journalist forever, don't we all? And then.

00;32;38;18 - 00;32;39;11
Speaker 2
And then reality.

00;32;39;11 - 00;32;50;10
Speaker 1
And then reality hit. So I told people I'm an accidental journalist, and people who are readers are like, Well, that's cool. And people who are writers are like, I'm going to push you out of the window now.

00;32;50;27 - 00;32;52;21
Speaker 2
What for me, if you're looking for an exit from you?

00;32;53;03 - 00;33;17;26
Speaker 1
Well, the next novel actually comes out this year as well. It's on September of 16th, I believe it is called The Shattering Piece, and it is the seventh book in the Old Man's War series. And it's been ten years since the last book in the series. And this year is also the 20th anniversary of the first book of the series coming out.

00;33;18;03 - 00;33;30;02
Speaker 1
So we thought that this would be an opportune time to go back into the universe and find out what's going on. So that's that's the next thing. And then after that, we'll find out.

00;33;31;07 - 00;33;33;25
Speaker 2
Suspects. Yes. The last question we always ask.

00;33;33;26 - 00;33;34;10
Speaker 1
OK.

00;33;34;11 - 00;33;37;01
Speaker 2
Because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about right now?

00;33;37;04 - 00;33;55;17
Speaker 1
The book that I have most recently read is actually TJ Clinton's latest book, and it was one from the book before that I read was Mary s latest book, which is called The Mark Martian Contingency. And both of those were because I was going to be doing events with them. I was like, Oh, I need to catch up with what they're doing.

00;33;56;14 - 00;34;18;13
Speaker 1
And the good news is I get to hang out with really, really impressive writers. So both of both of those books have been just a delight to read. So those are the two things that I've been reading the most recently. And yeah, now that it's been a it's a great time to be reading science fiction and fantasy in general.

00;34;18;13 - 00;34;33;20
Speaker 1
So much good stuff out there. So when you go to enter your local bookstore, she's, you know, you'll be able to choose from many, many find books, please by several.

00;34;34;13 - 00;34;36;06
Speaker 2
Several seven. It could be drugs.

00;34;36;06 - 00;34;36;28
Speaker 1
It could be drugs.

00;34;37;01 - 00;34;38;07
Speaker 2
Spending money on books, right?

00;34;38;09 - 00;34;41;07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Books nitrites. Exactly. They're better. Better for your brain.

00;34;41;09 - 00;34;43;08
Speaker 2
Exactly. So much better. So much better for the world.

00;34;43;08 - 00;34;44;10
Speaker 1
So much better for the book.

00;34;44;21 - 00;34;47;21
Speaker 2
Well, thanks so much for taking time to talk to literary hype about your branding, but.

00;34;47;21 - 00;34;51;21
Speaker 1
What do you think? Carrots. It was a delight to be here. Thank you for having me.

00;34;57;02 - 00;35;19;27
Speaker 3
Thanks again to John for taking time out of his very busy schedule to talk all about his book, When the Moon Hits Your Eye and just writing in general and just being a goofy human being. I had so much fun. I hope he did, too. It was a grand old time. If you'd like to get your hands on a copy of When the Moon Hits Your Eye or any of John's other books, the links to do so are down in the show notes for you, as well as where to find him on social media.

00;35;19;28 - 00;35;29;14
Speaker 3
If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast. Give us some stars and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.