86. ALEX TRAVIS: John Tucker Must Die vibes, teen drama, and comparison on social media

Kids are heading back to school, so now is the perfect time for a book about school drama turning ugly, right? This week on LiteraryHype Podcast, Alex Travis joins me to chat all about her book, The Payback Girls. This has John Tucker Must Die vibes, but if John ended up bloodied in a closet. Alex is also a school psychologist so she's bringing extra layers into this story. Join us as we chat about books, murder boards, babies, and Funko Pops, plus so much more.

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Transcript

00;00;03;09 - 00;00;25;17
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman. Today's author conversation is a really fun one because this book is based on a movie that I loved as a teenager. And now teenagers are going to get to read the vibes but like escalated. And I'm really excited for more people to read this book. It is The Payback Girls by Alex Strauss, which, if you're a fan of John Tucker, must die.

00;00;25;17 - 00;00;29;05
Speaker 1
This book is for you. If you also love a little more mystery.

00;00;29;22 - 00;00;31;14
Speaker 2
In your and your girl gang plot.

00;00;33;02 - 00;00;37;23
Speaker 1
Payback girls, you're going to enjoy this. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Alex Trebek.

00;00;43;00 - 00;00;47;11
Speaker 2
Welcome to Literary Hype. It's so exciting to have you on to talk about your brand new book, The Payback Girls.

00;00;47;11 - 00;00;48;18
Speaker 3
Thank you for having me.

00;00;49;02 - 00;00;53;20
Speaker 2
So for anybody who hasn't seen this book on social media yet or in their bookstores, what is this book about?

00;00;53;22 - 00;01;01;11
Speaker 3
So basically, the premise is John Tucker must die if maybe he actually turned up bloodied and beaten to death.

00;01;01;11 - 00;01;18;22
Speaker 2
I done this definitely has the John Tucker Must Die vibe. So is I. That is a classic movie. I'm naming it. Yeah. No, it was a very special moment in my high school experience, but we'll just go with that. But so how much of an inspiration was that movie for this book?

00;01;19;01 - 00;01;29;23
Speaker 3
It was a big inspiration. So definitely just the general idea. And then also the relationship between the girls and especially the queer angle. But taking it way further than the movie did.

00;01;30;06 - 00;01;41;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, because it's it's hinted that in the movie, but this really brings in what could have happened if maybe some sparks were flying among the girls. Why was it important to you to include that storyline with us? Oh, I felt.

00;01;41;26 - 00;02;03;29
Speaker 3
Like, you know, screw the guy. Well, let's, let's let's have the girls team up and also just that relationship I thought was just so compelling of like here these two girls were very different, but they both attracted the same guy. And now they're kind of figuring out hey, maybe we have some more commonalities. And maybe even though this guy kind of sucks, he had really good taste in girls.

00;02;04;07 - 00;02;27;16
Speaker 2
I really do love the girls and taking them on this journey because they start out as, like, absolute enemies and like, you're cheating. My boyfriend's cheating on me with you. But throughout this book, they grow not just in their schemes to try to uncover what went down, but they grow together as friends, and especially for our main character, Megan, like she has no friends at the school.

00;02;27;16 - 00;02;30;25
Speaker 2
So talk a little bit about crafting the friendship journey for these three.

00;02;31;11 - 00;02;56;20
Speaker 3
Well, I thought that it would be a super fun angle because they are also very different. And how do they become friends? How do you become friends with people that you think, This person is not my cup of tea. So I just felt like it was really important to have that and have those relationships and especially because they were, you know, the three black girls at this, you know, mostly white prep school, figuring out a way to bring them together and have them view each other.

00;02;56;20 - 00;03;04;23
Speaker 3
Not as, you know, they're being pitted against each other kind of by the school, but how can they come together among themselves? And internally.

00;03;04;28 - 00;03;14;27
Speaker 2
Race is such a big part of this story. So talk a little bit about crafting a story with such a massive topic.

00;03;14;28 - 00;03;32;02
Speaker 3
As a black woman, myself, I want to write, you know, black characters and I have the experience and, you know, still work in a predominantly white field, went to predominantly white schools. So having that experience and sometimes feeling like am I being pitted against this person and then realizing like, hey, I think I'm pitting myself against this person.

00;03;32;08 - 00;03;52;16
Speaker 3
And it's kind of the whole societal thing and wanting to represent that in the book as well and represent kind of those feelings, but also overcoming those feelings and really realizing, hey, I don't need to be doing this. I don't need to be putting myself in this position and let me figure out the best way to move forward.

00;03;52;23 - 00;04;11;18
Speaker 2
Comparison is such a big part of the story, and it's something we all face with social media. It's gotten so much worse. And like her, one of her Megan sisters takes over her social media to help her in that department. So talk a little bit about how social media is such a big part of like the teen experience and what they see now.

00;04;11;25 - 00;04;28;04
Speaker 3
It's crazy to think about because, I mean, I feel like social media was just starting the ascent from when I was a teenager. And then now it is such a huge part of everyone's lives. And I'm actually in my day job, a school psychologist working with the elementary school kids.

00;04;28;04 - 00;04;30;20
Speaker 2
So a little less social media, but they're still.

00;04;30;20 - 00;04;52;03
Speaker 3
They're still on social media. I don't know what a lot of the things they're on are, but they're talking to people. And it's just such a huge part of their social lives from such a young age. And then just that comparison piece of, you know, oh, this person's life looks perfect, this person looks perfect, and just all of these different things and just having to navigate that.

00;04;52;03 - 00;05;06;08
Speaker 3
I can't imagine for the kids of today and I feel like it's such a driver of a lot of those insecurities. Now, it's not just I'm comparing myself to that girl over there. It's I can compare myself to everyone and where am I in that?

00;05;06;18 - 00;05;27;19
Speaker 2
The school psychology part is very interesting to me because books like this need a good psychological foundation in order to work. So talk a little bit about what how your work and what store like, if you mind anything about your work experiences or your coworkers experiences to help flesh out these girls and in their characters?

00;05;27;19 - 00;05;52;07
Speaker 3
Not as much from my experience, specially because I, I work with the younger kids generally, but an inspiration in that I did have was I went through a very big Tudor history phase as a kid particularly. I was obsessed with Anne Boleyn, who wasn't like, I like I like the bad girl. And so I kind of based each of the characters off of the first three of the eighth wives.

00;05;52;07 - 00;06;12;29
Speaker 3
So Robin is supposed to be kind of like the long suffering girlfriend, the captain of Aragon. Bria is the Anne Boleyn, the one who kind of comes in and shake things up. And then Meghan is supposed to be the Jane Seymour who seems sweet and is like the one true love. But is she really so kind of bringing that in was an inspiration of some of those dynamics.

00;06;13;12 - 00;06;26;00
Speaker 2
With a thriller like this, you got a lot of story where you've got all these hints and clues and foreshadowing and the investigation and theories how did you approach keeping it all straight?

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;50;07
Speaker 3
So definitely trying to outline. And then that's also where it helps that, you know, having a publisher, having an editor they're able to go through. So like they would catch something and I'd be like, Oh, I didn't realize that. So I think it's like a good combination of having outside sets of eyes and then also having to kind of write myself an outline and be like, all right, this is the sequence of events.

00;06;50;07 - 00;06;56;00
Speaker 3
This is supposed to happen here. And then having to go back and try and keep it all straight. And then, of course, I still miss things.

00;06;56;07 - 00;07;09;16
Speaker 2
I like to envision authors having like a murder board for their for their murder stories. If you had a murder board for this story, what would be the biggest piece of evidence that would be on the board? That's a good.

00;07;09;16 - 00;07;36;18
Speaker 3
Question. I feel like the items that were found with Nate when he was bloodied so we had a textbook, a trophy and a field hockey stick, and I think those would be on there. And then just a lot of like, you know, string and trying to figure everything out. But I feel like I do need a memory word for these stories that would be very useful.

00;07;36;24 - 00;07;40;22
Speaker 2
It would be. And they needed to have the crafts, which helps you procrastinate more.

00;07;40;22 - 00;07;49;18
Speaker 3
Exactly. I like the way that your brain works, and I also need it for the mom brains. And it'd be good to visualize at this point, right?

00;07;49;18 - 00;07;58;15
Speaker 2
Because so much of fiction has to play out in your head. So talk a little bit about crafting these scenes to make sure that they translate to the reader's mind I feel.

00;07;58;15 - 00;08;17;27
Speaker 3
Like is really just getting immersed in the story and be excited about writing it and just trying to kind of sit down and like, just let it take me and then if it didn't make sense, going back and figuring out, like, all right, I feel like I was immersed in it, but maybe other people would not be getting what's inside my brain.

00;08;17;27 - 00;08;23;21
Speaker 3
So how can I edit this and make it, you know, a little more understandable?

00;08;24;04 - 00;08;42;02
Speaker 2
So with Megan, we have an unreliable narrator, which is a super fun trope that has really taken off in in the last ten or 15 years. So talk a little bit about how why you decided to make her an unreliable narrator versus going with like a different perspective or a different form of narration.

00;08;42;11 - 00;09;03;20
Speaker 3
So I really wanted there to be that self-doubt of Could I have done it? I don't know. And then as she's doubting all the different people around her and wondering who can she trust, realizing like, I don't know that I can trust me. And I felt that that was a really interesting angle to have. And then also just trying to navigate those feelings of like, well, hey, this dude really screwed me over.

00;09;04;03 - 00;09;10;25
Speaker 3
I kind of did want to beat him up, but did I actually do it? And if I did, is that OK?

00;09;11;04 - 00;09;11;29
Speaker 2
Probably not.

00;09;12;06 - 00;09;15;17
Speaker 3
But what are the what are the rules here?

00;09;16;02 - 00;09;33;07
Speaker 2
But with Megan, she also has this history of kind of abusive relationships and something in her past that she's trying to keep secret of why she's at the school so talk a little bit about the fun of having a character with a secret that the reader doesn't fully know what's going on. I thought that.

00;09;33;08 - 00;09;54;15
Speaker 3
Added a real extra layer for her of I've tried to be perfect. I have tried to present this way in my old school. It really didn't work out for me. Now I'm kind of doing it again in a similar situation. And now I'm in a similar situation where something happens to this guy and all fingers could be pointing to me, What do I do?

00;09;55;13 - 00;10;17;21
Speaker 3
And I thought that that was a really interesting angle to come in at. And then also just that kind of anxiety angle of, I have been through this, I have been through, you know, that abuse in that relationship. And here are some ways that maybe this new relationship still feels kind of icky, but I'm overlooking it. But I also doubting, you know, my perception of it.

00;10;17;29 - 00;10;23;25
Speaker 3
And now other people are coming in and I'm getting their perception. And I thought, but it just added a lot of different layers to it.

00;10;24;05 - 00;10;39;21
Speaker 2
One thing I really loved about this was the sister relationships as someone who has two sisters and a brother and like how they really stepped up for Megan. And so talk a little bit about crafting these relationships between the sisters and developing them as characters all of their own.

00;10;39;27 - 00;11;04;12
Speaker 3
That part was super fun and just the dynamic between all of them and how they get in on the social media. And they're kind of like, Oh, well, let me craft this or Let me watch this. And I thought that was super fun. I also have a sister, so definitely like kind of playing with those dynamics of sisterhood and like these people will drive you up a wall, but there and in the hardest times, they're the ones that are going to be by your side.

00;11;04;12 - 00;11;17;01
Speaker 3
In the trenches and really having kind of that balance of like, Oh my God, you guys are driving me nuts. But also when push comes to shove, you are the ones that are going to actually save my butt.

00;11;17;22 - 00;11;34;05
Speaker 2
Exactly. And it's like you don't really appreciate your siblings when you're that age, so it's nice to see it in a story where it's like, yeah, you can get along with your siblings in high school when they're younger and still be even though you're going through stuff, you can still be a role model through for them, through the hard times.

00;11;34;05 - 00;11;51;22
Speaker 2
Yes. So really nice to see play out as someone who did not get along with their siblings when they were younger. But now we're great. Now we go all over the place it gets better, guys. It gets better. So it's all online that you this you wrote these books. Well, this in your book, your last book, while procrastinating, writing your thesis.

00;11;52;03 - 00;11;52;25
Speaker 3
My dissertation.

00;11;53;07 - 00;12;03;07
Speaker 2
Dissertation, college words, hard words. So talk a little bit about how that made how writing became like a safe space for your brain.

00;12;03;16 - 00;12;21;08
Speaker 3
Well, it always has been. I started writing when I was like 11. I just sat down one day, my end goal, an obsession. I was like, I'm going to write a book on Emblem and you know, that book was every genre ever made obviously will never see the light of day. But from there, writing has always been a safe space for me.

00;12;21;08 - 00;12;44;21
Speaker 3
So especially the not the bulk, but a good chunk of my PhD program ended up happening during COVID. So I was at home I had a lot of time to write and it's just like, this is not fun. So it's like, all right, during traditional work hours, let me work on the not fun and then after that, let me do something a little more fun.

00;12;45;03 - 00;13;04;20
Speaker 3
And I got really into the CW Nancy Drew series. And so I was like, I want to write like Black Mystery Girls. I want a black Nancy Drew, like, let's do this. So it was a really good break from my brain, from the very academic side of writing these different characters.

00;13;04;24 - 00;13;07;22
Speaker 2
Nancy Drew, CW, screw that show over so.

00;13;07;22 - 00;13;09;00
Speaker 3
Bad, I'm still mad.

00;13;10;09 - 00;13;23;05
Speaker 2
I got to actually see a version of the pilot that only the people in that room saw at San Diego. So it's like they recast them. They recast the dad. So like we saw a whole different we had Freddie Prinze Junior in the Virgin. We saw.

00;13;24;18 - 00;13;25;11
Speaker 3
Oh, my God.

00;13;25;20 - 00;13;37;18
Speaker 2
It was wild. Like, Wait, no. Well, you switched it. That's weird. No, that's not what I saw a couple months ago. What do you mean? That was such a fun show. Oh, yeah. What other shows are you into?

00;13;37;23 - 00;13;55;13
Speaker 3
Like, what am I watching right now? Right now I'm watching The Good Wife. On recommendation, my mom. But I am really into it. Favorite of all time has to be Friday Night Lights. Also Veronica Mars. I feel like those are my two top two. Like, don't talk to me about a of Veronica Mars.

00;13;58;13 - 00;14;14;29
Speaker 2
Live ruined TV shows. They really do. That's not fair. But you mentioned being a mom. Yes. A brand new mom. And you guys are the cutest picture of Velcro baby Velcro while you're trying to write. So how's that adjustment then for you? It's like now I have to hold this child while I'm writing on these books.

00;14;14;29 - 00;14;44;11
Speaker 3
So definitely an adjustment this is my first time being away from her. So I'm like, all right, how's she doing? Like some pictures. Is she talking about me? No, she's not talking but like, she is. But it definitely it adds a new adventure, and it's just like everything I do is for her. So it's you know, she'll be on my shoulder, we'll be writing, and some stuff gets done, some stuff doesn't, but there's nothing better.

00;14;44;20 - 00;14;48;02
Speaker 2
What do you hope she takes from this book when she's old enough to read it?

00;14;48;02 - 00;14;59;29
Speaker 3
I think just not being afraid to put yourself out there. Be yourself. Sometimes you're going to be messy. Maybe sometimes someone's going to think you're a little bit abrasive, but do it. You got to.

00;15;00;05 - 00;15;07;06
Speaker 2
So one other thing I saw online about you in your bio is you have an outrageous collection of fungus. Yes. Like, how big are we talking?

00;15;07;23 - 00;15;31;05
Speaker 3
We have like a several little leveled TV stand, and it's covered completely, both kind of rows and then there's like some behind. But those are going to have to get moved because Velcro baby is very close to crawling. And those are just in that pretty sight line. So they are going to have to get moved. We'll have to find a better place for that collection.

00;15;31;09 - 00;15;33;08
Speaker 2
What's your favorite one in the collection?

00;15;33;08 - 00;15;41;29
Speaker 3
It's like a mix of mine and my husband so we've got a lot of the superheroes. I think the first one that he got me was a Harley Quinn. So that one I.

00;15;41;29 - 00;15;43;21
Speaker 2
Love Harley Guns, special.

00;15;43;21 - 00;15;53;15
Speaker 3
One in my heart. I have an Elysa from Hamilton. Think we miss Marvel. Captain Marvel. So lots of superheroes, lots of fun stuff. We even have some characters from Veep.

00;15;53;26 - 00;16;16;22
Speaker 2
So that's cause it's an eclectic lot. That's the thing about Fonkoze is you can have like the most random means, and it's because like, my honor I have a lot of superheroes, but also beats, but also Sam and Dean and the Impala. Oh, so good. It's just you never it's all over the place with Franco, and that's what makes them fun.

00;16;16;22 - 00;16;20;22
Speaker 3
Yeah. We wanted to get custom made ones for our wedding, and we didn't end up doing it.

00;16;20;22 - 00;16;23;02
Speaker 2
And I also noticed that for my wedding.

00;16;23;13 - 00;16;24;28
Speaker 3
Those those would also be there.

00;16;25;12 - 00;16;27;21
Speaker 2
Why? I mean, you're in l.a. They do have the custom place here.

00;16;27;21 - 00;16;32;10
Speaker 3
Oh, good to know they're not to get it. Obviously. A baby. A baby. Yeah.

00;16;32;11 - 00;16;42;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. So you can just slip away from the festival and go make fun goes. That sounds like a great point. Oh, yeah. It's like, up to many people. I need a break. I needed to go make a phone call of myself.

00;16;43;23 - 00;16;46;09
Speaker 3
Yeah, that would totally not look narcissist.

00;16;46;24 - 00;17;00;08
Speaker 2
It's fine. You're an author. You get to do whatever you want to promote yourself. You can hold a little book and just be, like, in all of your book pictures, now you don't see, then that's a tax write off because it's promotional loom for sometimes I have big brain energy.

00;17;02;18 - 00;17;03;27
Speaker 3
That's called being a businesswoman.

00;17;04;00 - 00;17;10;11
Speaker 2
There you go. Brilliant. Well, the last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about right now?

00;17;11;05 - 00;17;19;19
Speaker 3
I'm like, so many. I just saw that Tiffany Jackson is coming out the new book, and I love literally everything she does, so I'm excited about that.

00;17;19;25 - 00;17;21;28
Speaker 2
Are you going to be fighting for her arc? In the lines tomorrow?

00;17;23;20 - 00;17;26;21
Speaker 3
Like, can I not fight? Like, please, I'm just a girl.

00;17;27;11 - 00;17;32;10
Speaker 2
I'm just going to punch a child for it. It's fine. This is a teen book festival, but I need the books. I will push you.

00;17;34;15 - 00;17;40;17
Speaker 3
You know, I'm I'm sure, I'm sure with my other psychologist career, that would not go over well. But you know what? Like.

00;17;40;27 - 00;17;46;15
Speaker 2
I don't know. It's a book festival. Sometimes you need books Are there any other big subjects that I cut you off? Sorry.

00;17;48;14 - 00;18;04;06
Speaker 3
No, I'm excited. I mean, I'm excited about, like, everyone at your always. I immediately, like, went to my local library. It was like, all right, I got to get as many books as I can. So I'm reading a book by Crystal Maldonado right now. That's just like everything.

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;09;27
Speaker 2
There are so many good authors. You all first of all, it's a blast.

00;18;10;13 - 00;18;14;22
Speaker 3
I'm just like I was looking at what it was like. Oh, my God. Like, what am I doing here? This is crazy.

00;18;14;29 - 00;18;24;24
Speaker 2
Quick, welcome to the craziness. Well, thanks so much for hanging out with literary hype from your West Side. Lots of payback, girls.

00;18;24;24 - 00;18;25;29
Speaker 3
Thank you so much.

00;18;29;06 - 00;18;44;14
Speaker 1
Thanks, Alex, for hanging out with me to talk all about her book, The Pay That Girls. If you'd like to get a hold of this, which you should, it's really fun. The links to do so are in the show notes for you, as well as where to find her on social media. If you enjoy this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast.

00;18;44;14 - 00;18;51;08
Speaker 1
First of all, give us some stars. Leave a comment and share it with your friends. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.