122. BECCA COFFINDAFFER: Oldest Sibling Energy and Assassins in a Dystopia | The Bloody and the Damned

This week on LiteraryHype Podcast, Becca Coffindaffer joins me to talk about her latest novel, The Bloody and The Damned. It's about an assassin caught up in a job gone wrong and what they'll do to rescue their two sisters. It's all happening on a metal planet, which led to some interesting challenges for worldbuilding. We're talking about it all and that oldest sibling energy, so join us for a good time!

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00;00;03;06 - 00;00;09;17
Unknown
Hi and welcome to Literary Hi. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman back with another author conversation for Literary Hype podcast.

00;00;09;20 - 00;00;20;03
Unknown
Today I have an author who has been eagerly awaiting their turn and being on the show, which is so heartwarming to hear that they've actually been very excited to do this. And that author is Becca Kaufman for

00;00;20;03 - 00;00;26;09
Unknown
Becca has written in the Critical Role universe as well as some other novels, and back with another one.

00;00;26;17 - 00;00;32;16
Unknown
So let's dive in.

00;00;32;18 - 00;00;43;06
Unknown
Well, welcome to literary hype. It's so exciting to have you on the talk about your brand new book. I'm so excited to be here. I get to like, I've watched all of your little interviews and I'm like, someday, someday it'll be me.

00;00;43;06 - 00;00;51;01
Unknown
And now it is. It isn't your turn and you. Because, you know, like half the people who've been on the show at some point because Kansas City has the best writers squad,

00;00;51;01 - 00;00;53;12
Unknown
they really do. It's really incredible here,

00;00;53;12 - 00;00;58;03
Unknown
which you mentioned in your acknowledgments. So let's let's just go straight to the back of the book. Yeah. So acknowledge me back first.

00;00;58;04 - 00;01;09;20
Unknown
Yes. You've mentioned the writing squad here in Kansas City. Yeah. And the stomping around Tessa's kitchen. Yeah. I want to know what some of those were like because I missed out on those.

00;01;09;25 - 00;01;22;25
Unknown
I have very strong opinions on certain media. And you know in that space I will, I will get on a rant about stuff that that makes me frustrated and it gets a little stompy.

00;01;22;25 - 00;01;37;00
Unknown
I get very I don't know if you can tell. I speak with my body a lot. So yeah, I, I end up and they just stand in a semicircle and kind of watch me and laugh, and then sometimes they'll throw out a new topic that they know will make me mad.

00;01;37;03 - 00;01;42;12
Unknown
So it starts all over again. Those writing writer gatherings are like the absolute best.

00;01;42;12 - 00;01;55;24
Unknown
I love getting to go to that. I'm so mad I don't get to get to this next one. Boo boo. Tessa. Natalie. Boom. No, I'm just kidding. It's fine. But what has this community here taught you the most about writing?

00;01;55;28 - 00;02;21;21
Unknown
that you need the community. To be honest, I like the book that's coming out soon. That book would not be where it is now without, for example, Tessa, who read an early draft and recommended me to an agent and like that agent is still my agent now and has given me so much support and feedback. When I was little, I really did think that that writing was this solo activity.

00;02;21;21 - 00;02;41;27
Unknown
You sit down, you wear a black turtleneck, you print something out and you send it to New York and meeting Natalie and Tessa and then all the rest of the writing community, I could not do this without knowing that they have my back. We were on a panel at Phoenix in Salt Lake last year together, and you mentioned this book.

00;02;41;27 - 00;02;51;09
Unknown
And Sarah was like, it's so good. And you're like, you read an old one, so don't even talk about it. So it was like 2014. I think it's what you said that this was originally written.

00;02;51;11 - 00;02;58;05
Unknown
I wrote the first draft in 2014. I had just put a book to bed, like just we're going to put that one in the drawer.

00;02;58;08 - 00;03;08;00
Unknown
And I was like, all right, we're going to write this one. And I wrote it in like three months. And yeah, and it's taken 12 years to go from that first draft to now.

00;03;08;02 - 00;03;15;29
Unknown
What's something you miss the most from the original draft that will not be in the final draft? Is it? It's kind of gross.

00;03;16;01 - 00;03;20;29
Unknown
In the original draft, I had these, like, automatons.

00;03;21;01 - 00;03;41;18
Unknown
So this is a metal planet. You can't bury bodies. So I had these these metal looking guys that, helped process the bodies, and it was really gross. But I was really, I don't know, I was tickled by it. I have a weird sense of humor sometimes.

00;03;41;20 - 00;03;46;27
Unknown
12 years is a really long journey for a book. What took it so long to get to this point?

00;03;46;27 - 00;04;16;26
Unknown
A lot of growth needed to happen, so I signed. This is the book that I signed my agent with, and we revised it several times. She's a very editorial agent, sometimes to the point where I want to pull my hair out, but she's very smart. And then we put it on submission. It wasn't really getting anywhere. But then also when I was looking at it and and stuff was happening in the world and I'm just like, this book is not hitting what I need it to hit in terms of like bigger themes.

00;04;16;28 - 00;04;40;11
Unknown
And I didn't have the, the range and the knowledge that I have now. And so after The Crown Chaser's duology, I went back to it and I'm like, I'm older and wiser. I think that I can do this now. So I rewrote it quite a bit and we went back out, found the perfect editor, and from then it's been I won't say, smooth sailing.

00;04;40;11 - 00;04;46;27
Unknown
He's also very the editors editorial. We did a lot of drafts, but I'm very happy with where it grew to.

00;04;47;04 - 00;04;51;09
Unknown
So for anybody who hasn't seen this book on social media yet, introduce us.

00;04;51;12 - 00;05;05;23
Unknown
The book is called The Bloody and the damned. It is a Ya dystopian fantasy. So it's, set in, in a very dystopic world, but it's completely different. It's not like the the near future for us.

00;05;05;25 - 00;05;36;06
Unknown
It is a metal planet, and it follows Val, who is, an assassin living on the surface, which is where the rich people all live up in the the sky. And those who are on the surface have to really struggle. And they have the ability to teleport. Nobody's can know about this ability, but it makes them very effective at killing people and being an assassin, which they use to then take care of their younger sisters after their parents are gone.

00;05;36;09 - 00;05;55;04
Unknown
And then everything goes wrong. One job goes bad, their sisters get kidnaped, and they have to drop everything to try and get them back, including hooking up with some, old friends who turned enemies and, kind of going on that whole journey.

00;05;55;12 - 00;06;03;21
Unknown
You do dive right into this job gone bad? Yes. And make it very clear from the jump what is coming.

00;06;03;24 - 00;06;11;03
Unknown
Yes, it is an aggressively bloody book. But that is what you need from an assassin. So talk a little bit about the decision to start. Bloody

00;06;11;06 - 00;06;27;08
Unknown
well. First of all, this started as an adult book and then we decided to kind of go into the white space. And in the adult book it was bloodier. Like I said, the automatons, but I don't know, like, this is a this is a harsh world.

00;06;27;08 - 00;06;53;06
Unknown
It's a violent world. And Val has had to be violent in order to survive. That's a big part of it. It's like, who deserves to thrive and who has to just survive? And so Val has been just surviving and this is how they do it. And they make their peace with it. But also, I just think if you have an assassin and you're like, they're an assassin, they need to like stab things on the page.

00;06;53;06 - 00;07;06;04
Unknown
So you get that right out of the gate. What was it like transitioning this book from adult to teen? Because it was like when I was reading, I was like, this is an interesting choice for teens. Yeah. Why did you make that that switch?

00;07;06;06 - 00;07;19;25
Unknown
It was kind of a consultation, like I got feedback from Tessa, and then when I signed with my agent, there's just a lot of it's it's tough because there's just a lot of, like, very personal growth.

00;07;19;25 - 00;07;42;11
Unknown
And it's very, narrow. It's very like, narrowed in on Val and their perspective. And those kind of books do tend to lend better into that crossover space where you're just like, it's this one person, this first person perspective. And getting kind of really up close of like, how do they transition from being this person to being, you know, a more grown up, mature person?

00;07;42;14 - 00;08;08;04
Unknown
What was the initial idea for this book or initial scene that was like, I must write. This is gonna this is going to sound really silly. The idea for this book came from a dream, but not like a cohesive Stephanie Meyer. Like, full fledged dream. I had a dream that I was Darth Vader's sidekick, and I could teleport, and I was keeping my.

00;08;08;04 - 00;08;23;14
Unknown
I like my real little sister, was in the dream. But I was a little kid, and I was doing all of this work for Darth Vader to protect her. And like, that was the dream. And I woke up and I'm like, I'm going to make a book out of that. And then I had a completely separate idea for this, like giant metal clockwork planet.

00;08;23;14 - 00;08;28;01
Unknown
And I'm like, these two go together. And so from there, it was just about,

00;08;28;06 - 00;08;41;13
Unknown
honestly, it was about the sort of sibling thing. It was about like, how far would I go if my if my siblings were in danger, how far would I go? What would I do? What I stabbed someone and Val would. But I don't know about me.

00;08;41;15 - 00;09;01;13
Unknown
The older sibling energy is very strong in this and I mean, it starts from the dedication is this book is dedicated to your sisters. So what was it like for you as the big, protective older sibling, to write this book and know that it's like for them in a way. Well, first of all, actually, I'm not my oldest sibling.

00;09;01;13 - 00;09;23;07
Unknown
I'm in the middle. So my like, you're the problem child. Yes. Yeah, I, or the or the peacemaker or sometimes whatever, but no, never. Never. But I mean, you know, my older sister and I are very close in age. We've always been very close. And so, and then my little sister came 50 when I was 15 years old.

00;09;23;14 - 00;09;41;11
Unknown
But, you know, that was a whole different relationship there. Is that more protective feeling toward her? I don't know if they're such an integral part of my life and who I've become. It felt really amazing to be able to try and center that relationship and make it really important to Val, because it's so important to me

00;09;41;18 - 00;09;59;09
Unknown
As the oldest myself with two younger siblings. Well, two younger sisters. I do have a brother, whatever. Their three younger ones. But the sisters. Yeah, it's a whole different thing when it's a younger sister. Yeah. It is. The energy for that is so strong in this book, especially like early on, where they're like, the youngest is like, I could I don't need a babysitter.

00;09;59;09 - 00;10;20;25
Unknown
They're both like, no, carry on with the fight. So talk a little bit about that crafting that dynamic between these three. Honestly, this is another place where I feel like growth really helped because in the very first versions, I didn't have kids yet. And, I wrote very different. Like the sibling dynamics were just very they weren't real.

00;10;21;02 - 00;10;30;08
Unknown
And so being able now to come from a place where I'm looking like I have an 11 year old, and so now I'm writing, you know, the younger sister, younger sister,

00;10;30;11 - 00;10;44;18
Unknown
that experience was really necessary. So I just kind of was like, I thought about conversations I have with my kids, fights I used to have with my older sister, and just kind of drawing on all of that and those family dynamics.

00;10;44;20 - 00;11;03;03
Unknown
I just like thinking, like my siblings. It's like, shut up, you're the child I'm doing. We're doing what I like doing this. Like, yeah, I know you think you can take care of yourself, but can't. You can't. You're. And that's because I said so. I will do the taking care of all of you, and then I will complain about it later.

00;11;03;03 - 00;11;11;28
Unknown
Yes. Like. Or in Val's case, just go silently. Drink in your room. Yeah, because everybody's mad. Everybody's mad at you. You're just trying to do your best.

00;11;12;05 - 00;11;21;27
Unknown
it. Taylor Swift has that eldest daughter song. So everyone's talking about, like, the oldest daughter energy and the pressures of that come with being the one to take care of your family like that.

00;11;21;29 - 00;11;26;17
Unknown
How does Val work through all of that pressure outside of drinking?

00;11;26;20 - 00;11;50;19
Unknown
Outside of drinking and stabbing? That was where it was going. Yeah. Yeah, it was mostly. Yeah, the drink. And then they they stabbed things like a Game of Thrones. Yeah. Drink it. I know I drink and other things, except. Yeah, I don't do that stuff because I stop saying there is a like there is sort of like a part of Val that's like, I'm really pretty good at this and like, it's something that's it's for their siblings, but it's separate.

00;11;50;19 - 00;11;55;23
Unknown
It's like, this is just for me. And it's stabbing.

00;11;55;25 - 00;12;14;19
Unknown
the older sibling pressures in a dystopia are a little bit different than what you would see in our world. How do you approach building those pressures and how they're handling it when the world doesn't exist in our reality, and blending the world, building into how things can be done?

00;12;14;22 - 00;12;33;05
Unknown
unfortunately, I will say I feel like the current world, I can pull a lot more from the real world to inform this dystopian world than I would particularly like. But I think that also is sort of the heart of worldbuilding is like you can create a fantastical world, but you still have to ground it, right?

00;12;33;05 - 00;13;00;06
Unknown
You still have to pull from real life things and real life people and dynamics, because otherwise it just doesn't feel tangible and so I don't necessarily think about it any different than if I were writing a contemporary, where the difference comes is when they have a problem, I can throw something fantastical at it like a dragon, instead of like having to solve it with real world contemporary stuff like, budgeting.

00;13;00;06 - 00;13;00;23
Unknown
I don't know.

00;13;00;29 - 00;13;02;25
Unknown
What was the hardest part of worldbuilding for you?

00;13;03;02 - 00;13;18;08
Unknown
they are on a metal planet. There's no water, right? They get water rations from the theocratic government. Do you know how many words in our language have to do with water? You can't write that something rained down on somebody when they don't know what rain is.

00;13;18;10 - 00;13;35;19
Unknown
You can't do a wave because there's no waves. So that was that was tricky to go back through and be all like, you can't use that word, can't use that word. I didn't realize, English language had so much water in it. Who pointed that out for you? I nobody did. I just realized one time I was like,

00;13;35;19 - 00;13;38;06
Unknown
They can't say that. There's they don't have that.

00;13;38;09 - 00;13;58;08
Unknown
They can't say anything is a lake. There's no lakes. That's an interesting concept. Like, have it and I'm. Well, it's interesting that you thought of it and not like an editor or somebody else from the outside that you internally were like, oh, I need to fix this. Yeah. What was that process like, changing all of the wordage to get rid of the water of variables?

00;13;58;11 - 00;14;11;03
Unknown
Was that was that like ten of the years I lost it? Yeah, it was ten years. Yeah, I wrote it in 2014. I spent the next ten years figuring out different words for water. I mean, it was just

00;14;11;03 - 00;14;17;21
Unknown
once I realized it, you know, what I went through was kind of like, I just kind of thought of like, okay, this word might come up.

00;14;17;21 - 00;14;34;04
Unknown
So I just did, like, the control f do I say lake anywhere? Pond, River. Like, you can't say there was a river of tears even, because I don't know what a river is. So, just going through and having to control it was. It was a long day. It was a long day, but it didn't take too long.

00;14;34;06 - 00;14;34;24
Unknown
I don't think

00;14;35;02 - 00;14;43;12
Unknown
in this society that they live in, it does have some very strong religious undertones. Why did you decide to include that in the world building aspect of it?

00;14;43;18 - 00;15;00;11
Unknown
when I first started writing this, a lot of those religious elements were in their way back in the beginning. That was, for me, a time when I was, deconstructing a lot of my own sort of religious, upbringing.

00;15;00;14 - 00;15;29;03
Unknown
And, you know, there are so many theocratic undertones, unfortunately, especially in the US history and in our politics and in our government. So it was somewhat personal. It started out, I think, way more personal. And like I have a lot of feelings about how I was, you know, raised as a Catholic and then it became even more like of a big theme as I kind of went on and was like, oh, yeah, this feels a little too real.

00;15;29;03 - 00;15;30;15
Unknown
We're going to type it out.

00;15;30;18 - 00;15;48;08
Unknown
that plays into some of your inscriptions that start out the chapters at the divine Origins of Trinity. I always am so fascinated when there's that kind of a document that is quoted. Did you write the document all at once, or did you write them piece by piece to go with the chapter and then it goes together somehow?

00;15;48;13 - 00;16;11;27
Unknown
Yeah. It was more piece by piece. That's actually a really late edition. I think I don't think I put them in until like the third developmental edit that I did in like one feverish week and a half and I, I, I just remembered that I wanted something like to give a little more substance to like the, the religious culture in this, in this, you know, dystopian world.

00;16;12;00 - 00;16;38;24
Unknown
And I love that. I love it when books have those. I'm like, oh, I'm going to do that. And it was just sort of a chapter by chapter thing. Like what? What kind of what am I trying to hit home? And then it was also I had to look, I had like a whole spreadsheet to try and organize, like what quotes were going where from what book, you know, and then, to make sure it wasn't repeating, like repeating themes, repeating myself, contradicting myself.

00;16;38;24 - 00;16;43;21
Unknown
So I had like a whole spreadsheet about it, but it was just sort of written for the chapter.

00;16;43;24 - 00;16;54;25
Unknown
I'm always fascinated by those things because like, like Fourth Way, the letters. I'm like, okay, did you write out the whole letter? And then you're just like picking pieces or you just throwing these lines out and calling it a day?

00;16;54;27 - 00;17;15;21
Unknown
Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know, I don't it's always like an everybody's answer is different depending on the author. So true. So I always love getting to know everybody's processes a little bit. And on the topic of processes, you also write in some anthologies. So how does writing a novel versus an anthology piece, differ for you in your process and how you approach it?

00;17;15;24 - 00;17;37;15
Unknown
I would say that my novel process is a lot more involved in my anthology short story process is a little bit more like a trash raccoon, like I'm coming at it a lot of different ways, because short stories for me are just so much more of a challenge. My brain wants to, either go big or go like flash fiction.

00;17;37;22 - 00;18;06;03
Unknown
Like, either either I'm writing 100 words or I'm writing 100,000. So writing like a 10,000 word story, that one is that one is tough. If I can find a hook after that, I can usually sort of pants it together pretty well. And I never pants, but I do with short stories. But finding that, like hook where you're like, I feel like I can reasonably like attack this idea in a short period.

00;18;06;05 - 00;18;10;00
Unknown
That's a that's kind of a pain.

00;18;10;02 - 00;18;26;22
Unknown
Writing is, is an adventure. It is. That's a nice way to put it. It is. It's very nice. But it's like, especially being at the Casey writer's meetings and, like, getting to mingle with everybody and talk about everybody's processes. It's like. Okay. Yep.

00;18;26;25 - 00;18;32;02
Unknown
We're all we're all face down on the floor like just we're just we're making it work somehow.

00;18;32;07 - 00;18;34;08
Unknown
That's what you got to do. Yeah.

00;18;34;11 - 00;18;38;18
Unknown
Well, the last question we always ask, because this is literary hype of what books are you hyped about right now?

00;18;38;18 - 00;19;00;18
Unknown
I just read My Best French Wedding by Amanda Silva, who is another cake writer, but I got a NetGalley and it's a rom com. It's sort of a play on like the screwball comedies, and it was just delightful. I love how she writes banter. It was just such a fun like, kick your feet giggle and it kept me up way past my bedtime.

00;19;00;18 - 00;19;07;19
Unknown
So I highly recommend my Best French Wedding. Amanda Slay it doesn't. It's not out yet, but keep put it on your preorder list.

00;19;07;25 - 00;19;15;29
Unknown
Awesome! Well, thanks so much for taking time to talk all about your brand new books with Literary Hive. Thank you

00;19;16;01 - 00;19;24;08
Unknown
Thanks again to Becca for hanging out with me at Planet Comicon. Not only to talk about this book, but also to do a panel. We did battle the tropes together, which was such a good time.

00;19;24;10 - 00;19;29;20
Unknown
If you want to check out this book, the links to do so are down in the description, as well as where to find Becca on social media.

00;19;29;24 - 00;19;39;09
Unknown
If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype Podcast. Give us some stars, leave a comment and share it with your friends. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.