128. CASSANDRA NEWBOULD: Dystopian novels, disability representation, and dealing with disappointments

This week on LiteraryHype Podcast, author Cassandra Newbould joins me to talk about her YA dystopian novel, Climate of Chaos. This book follows a teenager with disabilities as she tries to save her sister and steal medical supplies from the government. It's a story Cassandra believes is more relatable than you might realize. We're talking all about why dystopian books are having a moment right now, the push for more disability representation on the page, and dealing with the disappointments that come in the publising industry, plus hints about her upcoming horror works.

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Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;06;14
Unknown
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman, back with another author conversation for Literary Hype podcast.

00;00;06;20 - 00;00;15;24
Unknown
Today's author has done a little bit of a bunch of things. She's got a contemporary that she's done. We're talking today about her dystopian, and she has some horror coming in the future.

00;00;15;28 - 00;00;22;06
Unknown
Today's author is Cassandra Newbold, who is the author of Climate of Chaos. This is the book we're talking about, which is a dystopian set in Seattle,

00;00;22;06 - 00;00;26;17
Unknown
which was perfect to talk about in Seattle while we were both at Emerald City Comicon, doing a panel together.

00;00;26;20 - 00;00;34;18
Unknown
So that any further ado, here is my conversation with Cassandra Newbold.

00;00;34;21 - 00;00;41;03
Unknown
Well, welcome to Literary Hub. So exciting to get to talk to you about your book club. A bit of chaos. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

00;00;41;08 - 00;00;46;01
Unknown
So for anybody who hasn't seen this book, it's been out for a little while. So what is Climate of Chaos all about?

00;00;46;01 - 00;00;58;27
Unknown
Climate of chaos is a young adult dystopian that really is about what will happen to our world with the way the state of America and, our medical health insurance system.

00;00;59;00 - 00;01;28;09
Unknown
If we actually had a climate crisis and it's already so in the infrastructure failing essentially, you know, where would we be, if people were continuously getting sick and ill and hurt? And when currency, is no longer monetary and you pay for your, health care as currency, like, what are you willing to do to get help?

00;01;28;14 - 00;01;30;16
Unknown
What was your initial idea for this book?

00;01;30;19 - 00;01;51;27
Unknown
honestly, in 2010, I was walking across the street and I got hit by a cargo van. And so, I racked up about a quarter of $1 million in medical debt, and I got, you know, constantly denied, like, even now to this day, from these injuries. Like a month ago, I got denied an MRI.

00;01;52;00 - 00;02;11;26
Unknown
When I have a history from 2010 of all these compounded issues. And so I got so frustrated. I was so angry. And I just one day I was like, you know what? I'm going to write about it, and I'm going to set it in a dystopian world, and I'm really going to just put my rage on the page.

00;02;11;26 - 00;02;21;04
Unknown
And, you know, I, I think that if you yourself have not experienced a mental medical that someone you love has. So it's a very relatable subject all around.

00;02;21;09 - 00;02;25;09
Unknown
And you wrote contemporary before, so why switch into dystopian?

00;02;25;13 - 00;02;36;07
Unknown
my heart is with dystopian. My comfort. Like, if I'm having a bad day, I'll watch a disaster movie or a dystopian, or I'll pick up a book.

00;02;36;10 - 00;03;00;15
Unknown
I find a lot of comfort in it. You know, through all the chaos, through all the failings of humanity, there's always that one grain of hope. And it makes you're whatever you're going through, not feel as overwhelming. I think when you see that people can persevere and survive. And while I love contemporary, this was always my dream.

00;03;00;15 - 00;03;06;22
Unknown
Like, that was the goal that I was working towards was writing dystopian writing, sci fi and fantasy.

00;03;06;29 - 00;03;31;14
Unknown
It feels like dystopian is kind of inching its way back. It's like baby back. It's not quite fully back, but it needs to be. Yeah. What is it about this genre that is resonating right now? Yeah. Well, in the short answer, I think it's because we're going through it right now as an entire species.

00;03;31;17 - 00;04;02;18
Unknown
And I think that one of the ways of coping mechanisms is to turn to art, to know that you're not alone, to work through your emotions in a safe environment, be that music, books, TV, painting, whatever have you, you know. And so I think that it's just with the way the world is right now, I think that people are either leaning into it hard or avoiding dystopian altogether.

00;04;02;23 - 00;04;27;15
Unknown
It's that fine balance of like sci fi has been like an escape, but it's not quite an escape right now. Yeah, it's it's it's you can go into it and be like, this is an escape because it could be worse. Yeah. Or I'm gonna avoid it just entirely. Yeah. So this has a little bit about that mindset for teens and why you chose to write this story for teens specifically.

00;04;27;17 - 00;05;11;04
Unknown
Because I truly do feel for every generation, the one after them and the one after that are really the ones that are going to take care of you when you're older and they still haven't given up hope, they still have this purity inside of them that like, like the world hasn't fully, completely fallen on their shoulders yet. And so I think having a protagonist, you know, your main character that is just ready and willing to go through everything like I, I really, truly loves that they're not as jaded as adults.

00;05;11;07 - 00;05;30;21
Unknown
And so that's why I write for teens, because there's still that magic, there's still that wonder. And I think every time as you're older that you get to rediscover it and find it, that's a blessing. But when you're a teenager, you know, that's the moment when anything still is possible. You dedicate this book to those still trying to change the world.

00;05;30;27 - 00;05;53;07
Unknown
What do you hope people take away from this book? I hope that people take away that if we do not change the way we take care of the people here in this country, we all lose. You know, just because it might not be happening to you personally, the trickle down effect it is going to get to eventually.

00;05;53;07 - 00;06;04;26
Unknown
And when you you don't take care of your weakest or poorest, you know, your sickest, we all suffer. And so I think that if anything,

00;06;05;04 - 00;06;14;25
Unknown
anyone who is disabled who reads my book, I hope that they see, you know, I hope they see that they're not alone. I hope they understand that, you know, like they can relate.

00;06;14;25 - 00;06;31;09
Unknown
Like there's so many people that I've talked to who are like, the way that you described chronic pain. Like, I really felt like that, like it connected with me so much. And so I hope that like if, if you are someone who, you know, has any kind of medical issue that you can find,

00;06;31;15 - 00;06;32;15
Unknown
that you're not alone.

00;06;32;15 - 00;06;42;06
Unknown
And for anyone who doesn't, I hope that they can find that empathy to not overlook, people who are suffering.

00;06;42;08 - 00;06;54;25
Unknown
And you get to the suffering pretty quick in this. Yes. I mean, someone get shot on page five. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about your decision to, like, dive into it, into the nitty gritty right off the bat and really set the tone for what this book was going to be.

00;06;55;01 - 00;07;36;03
Unknown
Yes. I didn't want this book to be very light at all. I really wanted to throw you right into the world so you understand how hard they have it. I wanted to like, I wanted to just put you in the action. So you understand, like the fear. Like how desperately they need the medical supplies, what they're willing to go through to get them, what they're willing to risk to get them, like what they have to do to not just get supplies for themselves, but for the people that they are, you know, going in and trying to steal the, you know, the medicines for to give out to.

00;07;36;05 - 00;07;46;18
Unknown
And so I thought that, like putting you on Fox's first mission was a great way to really get to know the character without knowing.

00;07;46;20 - 00;07;55;06
Unknown
Let's talk a little bit about Fox and Rabbit because, they're pretty unique names for character. What made you decide to go with Fox and Rabbit for the La Rosa sisters?

00;07;55;10 - 00;08;01;08
Unknown
my parents actually have really good friends who I.

00;08;01;10 - 00;08;27;04
Unknown
I knew when I was a child. I don't get to see them very often now, but they were just two people. They were fox and rabbit. A husband and wife, actually, who I just adored. They, are, psychologists. And we used to like there was an entire summer where we camped in Colorado and lived on the land.

00;08;27;07 - 00;08;45;17
Unknown
And so, like, I just sorta wanted to put like, that was sort of my, like, thank you to them, you know, like to, to put them in my book. I mean, obviously it's not them, but just their names. It's sort of like, you know, people that I loved.

00;08;45;19 - 00;08;51;26
Unknown
We meet Fox on her first mission with rabbit, but rabbit's been an old pro at this.

00;08;51;29 - 00;09;02;15
Unknown
So what was it like plotting out their heist missions? Did you know, going into it how it was going to work out? Or was that like a discover? There's there's shenanigans along the way and how it all work?

00;09;02;17 - 00;09;32;21
Unknown
I discovered their shenanigans along the way. I'm a pantser by heart. I would have, like, the very faintest kernel of an idea, and then they just sort of sorta ruined it with their adventures in my brain as I was typing. I have a younger sister, and we're two years apart, and so I really pulled from some of the antics that, you know, like just that kind of, older, younger sister relationship.

00;09;32;23 - 00;10;00;25
Unknown
I really wanted, though, to sort of spin it with, you know, like, it's almost in the beginning, like rabbit feels like the older sister in some ways, you know, like she definitely has more authority in the position of what they do for work. And so, it's hard, though, because without giving a spoiler, you see the relationship very much.

00;10;00;25 - 00;10;03;27
Unknown
But then, you know,

00;10;03;29 - 00;10;25;20
Unknown
things happen. Things happen. Yes. But yeah, as an older sister, like Fox's drive to do anything to take care of her sister is so real and so relatable. And I have two sisters and we'll see who like, like, better. They know it. That's just the fun part of being the older sibling. But that also comes with so much pressure.

00;10;25;22 - 00;10;32;15
Unknown
How did you feel as an oldest daughter putting that pressure on the page for others to connect through?

00;10;32;18 - 00;10;37;25
Unknown
Well, I hope that people definitely was like, oh yeah, I've, I've dealt with that before.

00;10;37;27 - 00;11;03;22
Unknown
there is such a, a societal expectation for older daughters and what they need to do. I'm 48 years old, and in the 90s, like I was watching not just my younger sister, but like my cousins when I was like eight years old and without any parents around for hours and hours all the time.

00;11;03;22 - 00;11;05;25
Unknown
And that's a lot of pressure on, like

00;11;05;28 - 00;11;37;11
Unknown
it was a whole different world. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you know, even I think the one thing that I truly love about the relationship is even when they're not around each other, like Fox is willing to go through it. So to help her and to find her. And I just really hope that one of the main themes of my book is sisterhood, not just through Fox and Rabbit, but also through Fox and selling Celie and Jasmine.

00;11;37;12 - 00;11;46;01
Unknown
You know, I really, really wanted to show the power of women who love each other, who would ride or die for each other.

00;11;46;08 - 00;11;58;20
Unknown
Fox is going through it as well, in the chronic pain sense, as someone who deals with that. What was it like for you to channel that part of you and put it out there for people to read in, like a very vulnerable way?

00;11;58;25 - 00;12;28;06
Unknown
That was difficult, to be quite honest. A lot of the time, the easiest way to not acknowledge how much pain you're in is to not acknowledge how much pain you're in. And so having to sit there and thoughtfully write about how, like if, say, your hip is hurting, how you have to press on a certain pressure point just to relieve the pain enough so you can take another step, you know, like it really.

00;12;28;09 - 00;12;55;19
Unknown
It brings you into your pain when you're writing like that. And I think mentally that can be a little bit tough because I've spent so much now of my life trying to ignore. And now I'm like purposefully, consciously, just for months. That was, you know, my world was writing about how Fox would deal with something, you know, in the body.

00;12;55;19 - 00;13;02;10
Unknown
She is in with the pain that she's experiencing and still try and get through the day. So it was it was difficult.

00;13;02;10 - 00;13;20;02
Unknown
There's a line where they're like, talking to Fox and they're like, you're not that special. And that reading that for someone who's already othered was rough. So it's a little bit about including that. And like for people who are already other than being told, oh, you're not so special, you don't need this, you don't need that.

00;13;20;07 - 00;13;43;08
Unknown
I wrote that because I really wanted, in the end to show how special she was. And I also wanted to show that, like, sometimes the people that you love the most will be the ones that absolutely gut you and disappoint you. And to as painful as that is, you just have to let the words roll off your back.

00;13;43;08 - 00;13;44;07
Unknown
You know, like

00;13;44;12 - 00;13;47;05
Unknown
verbal abuse is very difficult.

00;13;47;12 - 00;13;58;22
Unknown
Especially if it's a family member, you know, and, I just really wanted to show, how Fox got through that without completely breaking.

00;13;58;24 - 00;14;09;18
Unknown
And some sad news for this is that there's not going to be a sequel. Yes. And you posted a really emotional, vulnerable video about getting that news.

00;14;09;20 - 00;14;25;17
Unknown
What was it like for you to not only like, obviously, it's devastating news that you don't get to finish the story the way you want to do, but how that affects the representation for others who are dealing with this and how they see themselves when a decision like this is made.

00;14;25;23 - 00;14;35;20
Unknown
it was nothing that I was expecting because as an author, there's certain milestones and goalposts that you're supposed to hit.

00;14;35;20 - 00;15;04;29
Unknown
That quote unquote should guarantee you to get your sequel or what have you, your next book. And Climate of Chaos was setting it. It turned out in less than six months, you know, got two star trade reviews, one from School Library Journal, one from Booklist. It's, you know, almost on its second printing, it like, had, got nominated for the British Science Fiction Association at long last.

00;15;05;02 - 00;15;17;15
Unknown
Excuse me, longlisted for the BAFTA Awards. So here in my head, I was thinking, this is definitely going to happen. And then to find out that, you know, they were like,

00;15;17;18 - 00;15;50;02
Unknown
it's very shocking to get that email about saying, you know, and they didn't say forever, but the real reality is, is that unless the book goes viral in some kind of post or, you know, it's one of those that like all of a sudden, like organically finds the audience that gives the sales team the numbers that they're looking for as the time goes by, it's so less likely that a sequel is going to happen.

00;15;50;04 - 00;16;31;28
Unknown
So, I think that when publishing takes on representation, saying that they're going to take care of, you know, marginalized people and give them that opportunity, they need to stand by that. Especially because there's so little representation out there as it is. And when they don't support and not just disabled authors, but Middle East authors in general, across the board diversely, then they're doing a disservice to all of their readers because readers want it.

00;16;32;01 - 00;16;56;26
Unknown
A lot of it has to do with marketing. A lot of it has to do with the pre publication support to get to the numbers that they require to have things like sequels in second and third and fourth books. So I think that they need to put their money where their mouth is and actually give the people the support that, you know, like it's great to hear.

00;16;56;29 - 00;17;27;20
Unknown
It's great to see on paper that like, oh, we're, you know, publishing diversely, but if you don't follow through your, it's lip service. So, you know, I love my editor. I adore her so much. And, you know, she wanted the sequel as badly as I did. The, you know, editorial director wanted the sequel as badly as we did.

00;17;27;22 - 00;17;52;06
Unknown
And it really, truly is at this point, it's like, I, I don't know, but I'm not giving up. You know, and if if they don't ever do the sequel, somehow, someway, I'm going to write it just if for no one else than myself. But I would love to give it to my readers too. So, I don't know.

00;17;52;07 - 00;17;57;17
Unknown
It. It broke me. It did.

00;17;57;20 - 00;18;06;10
Unknown
I, I just don't know how.

00;18;06;12 - 00;18;16;11
Unknown
Not just for myself, but but again, like, across the board for the Middle East. Without that support, how do you get the next box?

00;18;16;14 - 00;18;34;16
Unknown
And it's frustrating because you're not the only author I've heard this from that has had books with disabled representation that have had publishing fail them essentially. And I don't want people to hear this and think, oh, well, I'm not going to pick up this book now because it's not going to have the ending I want. It's going to have a cliffhanger or something.

00;18;34;18 - 00;18;37;26
Unknown
So why should someone still go pick up this book?

00;18;38;01 - 00;19;05;24
Unknown
Because it's a really good story. And I think that even though it doesn't have a you know, finalized ending sequel yet, I think that the story in itself, Climate of Chaos, has enough going on that it's a worthy read. I you know, I think that the fact that the people who have read it, you know, really a lot of the time that someone has come up to me, they're like, I can't wait for the sequel.

00;19;06;01 - 00;19;21;28
Unknown
That means that they really enjoyed the story, you know? And I think that it's. With the way that America is. I think that it's a story that should be read because of the

00;19;22;01 - 00;19;25;15
Unknown
climate. But,

00;19;25;18 - 00;19;30;26
Unknown
it's just relevant. It's so relevant to what is happening right now.

00;19;30;26 - 00;19;53;17
Unknown
And I think because of that, it's going to be very relevant ten years, 20 years into the future, too. So, you know, give it a chance and, and honestly, the number one reason, I guess, from, you know, an author standpoint, the more people who read this book, the more of a chance down the road that a sequel can happen.

00;19;53;20 - 00;20;03;06
Unknown
So pick up the books. Pick up the books. Only you can make it happen.

00;20;03;08 - 00;20;30;28
Unknown
I feel so blessed with having started my career in my 40s as an author. I would not be here had I not been hit by that fan. And that's the truth. I barely graduated high school. I became a stay at home mom at 22, became disabled in my early 30s. And the path for me was not this, you know, on paper, I shouldn't be an author.

00;20;31;00 - 00;21;02;04
Unknown
However, you know, I think that what I really want to say is when life screws you over, you can make beautiful, beautiful memories from it. When you when you're at your deepest and darkest like, do not give up hope because you do not know what the future holds. And there were days that I didn't even. I couldn't see myself having a tomorrow.

00;21;02;11 - 00;21;30;15
Unknown
And now here I am, you know. And so like that's really just for anyone out there who is, you know, writing with the hopes of being an author or, you know, any dreams that you have honestly, like, do you never know what's going to happen in five years and ten years? So don't give up your dreams and be open to discovering a new path and new dreams that you could have never imagined in the first place.

00;21;30;17 - 00;21;50;07
Unknown
this is a dystopian world, there is a conversation about like, movie theaters being a thing of the past. What, like normal part of society that we have now. Would you miss the most if there was an apocalypse and things went haywire? Oh, that's a good question.

00;21;50;10 - 00;21;56;11
Unknown
driving as weird as that sounds, gasoline will run out, diesel will run.

00;21;56;11 - 00;22;19;10
Unknown
I have a diesel truck. You know, but I love road trips. That is, like, my all time favorite thing to do is just jump in the car. Back when my kids were younger, they're older now, but, like, we'd be like, let's go. And we're just going to drive across country. And I would miss that so much. I mean, I'm not much of a hiker.

00;22;19;13 - 00;22;35;19
Unknown
Well, I know. So I feel like my traveling would just, you know, I'd be very limited with how I could get around. And so, you know, I know that's not a typical answer, but I do. I would miss a good road trip.

00;22;35;25 - 00;22;43;26
Unknown
Now, when you signed my book, you wrote Be the Thorn. Yes. What does that mean to you and hope for the readers to me?

00;22;43;29 - 00;22;52;00
Unknown
Okay, so there's a quote in the book that says I don't want to be. And I'm paraphrasing here because I don't know it off the top of my head, but it

00;22;52;05 - 00;23;21;28
Unknown
Essentially, you don't want to be just some pretty things sitting around waiting for something to happen. You want to be the thorn, you know you want to poke and prod and make people bleed and, like, really get answers. So be the thorn. Stick it to them, honestly. Stick it to them. Like, you know, if you're upset with the government, if you're upset with, you know, locally, globally, be the thorn.

00;23;21;28 - 00;23;26;21
Unknown
Get get in their side and don't make it so they can ignore you.

00;23;26;24 - 00;23;41;27
Unknown
And you mentioned your editor Ashley, I got to meet a couple weeks ago and she is so much fun. And knowing other authors that Ashley works with or like Ashley the best. Yes. What is the best piece of advice you got from Ashley in crafting this story?

00;23;41;29 - 00;23;46;28
Unknown
Write an outline.

00;23;47;00 - 00;24;18;21
Unknown
She she would love for us off right now. She she really fought with me about changing the way that I write, and I resisted so much, but finally gave in, and it was. Oh, she was so cracked. I hate to say it, but it helped my process. Because, you know, when you get a second book, you're writing on contract.

00;24;18;23 - 00;24;36;13
Unknown
If you're not turning in an already finished book, but you have a very strict deadline. And so if when you're a pantser, you don't have all the time in the world to write your manuscript, you have to hit all these deadlines at certain times because production is already going. And so

00;24;36;16 - 00;24;39;22
Unknown
that outline saved my butt because

00;24;39;25 - 00;24;46;08
Unknown
we did it chapter by chapter, and it was just like a paragraph, paragraph and a half for each chapter.

00;24;46;11 - 00;25;07;26
Unknown
But it was like my Bible, like every single time I was like, I don't know where to go. I would just go to the outline and be like, and it would restart my brain. And I know that sounds simple for anyone who has any modicum of like, you know, plotting like that, if they have that functioning brain, they're like, duh.

00;25;07;28 - 00;25;20;23
Unknown
But I don't. I am so far removed from that. And so for me, it actually is retraining myself to think a certain way. And, and and that was all Ashley.

00;25;20;26 - 00;25;45;07
Unknown
You've got two books coming out this year. What can you tell us about those? Okay, so I am in a horror anthology that comes out in June, called Of Dread to K and doom, and I have a short story in there called To the Last Straw. Well, then I also have a novella coming out in December that is called When the Force Calls, which is the prequel to To the Last Straw.

00;25;45;09 - 00;26;19;22
Unknown
It takes place about 85 years before the short story does. I pitched it as what if the Giving Tree decided to stop giving and get revenge instead. It has a fair amount of body horror in it, and, nature versus humanity, a lot of nature horror in it. And also, it really just is a lot about feminine power and, you know, in multiple different ways, like fighting back against the patriarchy.

00;26;19;28 - 00;26;21;17
Unknown
love that. Yes, yes.

00;26;21;23 - 00;26;37;03
Unknown
What can happen when a tree and a woman get together and decide to destroy an entire village? That sounds like poison ivy. Yeah. Which is perfect for Comic-Con. Yeah. Emerald city Comic-Con. And we're here to do a battle of the tropes. So what are your favorite tropes to play with?

00;26;37;03 - 00;26;39;29
Unknown
Ooh, I you know, I have to say it.

00;26;40;00 - 00;27;01;01
Unknown
I like obviously the Chosen one, but flip it, you know, like that was one of my favorite things about writing Climate of Chaos was that I really decided to write. What if your sister is the chosen one? You know who's going to be there to save her? You know, like, I loved writing it from the sibling's point of view, you know?

00;27;01;01 - 00;27;24;18
Unknown
So the world is fawning over the Chosen One, but you're all you're doing is trying to clean up her mass and take care of her. And, you know, save her because everybody else is trying to use her. So definitely the terrorism one trope. I love the friends to enemies to lovers. That's like, you have someone you love.

00;27;24;21 - 00;27;50;13
Unknown
You have someone that you hate. You get in this horrible fight, and then all of a sudden, you guys love each other so much more afterwards. And I really, I and my daughter's in a band, and she has a lyric that says, I don't want someone who will die for me. I want someone who will make me live.

00;27;50;15 - 00;28;02;24
Unknown
And so I love instead of the I'll die for you trope. I love that I'm going to love you so much that you just want to live, you know? And, so yeah, those are my favorites.

00;28;02;24 - 00;28;18;15
Unknown
Since this is literary hype, what books are you hyped about right now? I am going to say over and over again, if you like, Dystopian Jill two. She's got two books, The Dividing Sky and An Ocean Apart, that just came out recently.

00;28;18;22 - 00;28;33;13
Unknown
Highly, highly highly suggest. Joel two. Her books have, so much romance in a dystopian setting, and they're just like, I can't. I can't hyper up enough.

00;28;33;16 - 00;28;38;26
Unknown
Awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to talk about Climate of Chaos here at Emerald City Comic-Con with literary hype.

00;28;38;29 - 00;28;42;25
Unknown
Thank you so much for having me.

00;28;42;28 - 00;28;50;01
Unknown
Thanks for Cassandra for hanging out with me over two different days at Emerald City Comic-Con. As we talked about this book, and we did the battle of the tropes together.

00;28;50;01 - 00;28;55;29
Unknown
If you'd like to check out Cassandra's book, the links to do so are in the show notes for you, as well as where to find her on social media.

00;28;56;01 - 00;29;05;22
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